Should I just disappear?

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1.) Should I let her retreat to solitude, and how easily and often should I, when do I push it? I'm afraid of causing more sensory overload.

I'm a forty year old male NT interested in a 34 year old female Aspie. She has never told me that she has AS. We talked and wrote each other before our first date. We had a nice first date. Yes, there was mutual attraction. At the end I gave her a hug that wasn't returned. That combined with other things said and that happened made me wonder. I set out figure out what was up. She shows all the sign of AS and I think she is diagnosed from something she said. During our fist date I asked if she wanted a family. The response was 'well I could with the right support'. I later realized she didn't answer the question of 'want'. After our date she didn't want to talk and didn't even read my emails.

Then I get a call...I'm not interested in you but let's be friends, she says. I said sure, I would love that. We talked for a while and ended the conversation agreeing to continue the next evening. That hasn't happened, again she went back to solitude and won't talk and email goes unread. I get text messages, saying she is so sad and just wants to be alone and cry. Should I just dissapear? That makes me sad and feels like giving up, thats not me. But I don't want to be bothersome either.

Before this occurance I was an Aspie dope. In the past week or so, I've read three books on it and the fourth should arrive and be read before the weekend arrives. I think I understand it well and am not looking for data on it. I want to know experiences and feelings that may help. I guess I want help on how to help me help someone else. Feel free to ask for more infomation. BTW, how and why am I an Emu Egg, lol. Thanks in advance.

Interesting...I'm sort of in a similar boat. Sort of. I'm an NT gal, my sweetheart is an Aspie. He's done this on a milder scale (shrink into the abyss for a day or two), but he hasn't worked out a way of doing it without tearing my heart into shreds each time ><; Ah well, live and learn.

The fact that she sends you txts and emails at all, and confides her sadness to you, is a plus. I think she just doesn't know HOW to reach out to someone for help. It'll be interesting to hear what the good folks around here have to say about the topic...I have a hunch she wants your presence in some way or another, but physical presence may be way too much for her. I know that I'm one of the few people that can touch my boy without him flipping out ><;; Aspies have stricter boundaries than us, physically, of course...

I wouldn't disappear, not yet. Not until she tells you to bugger off in some way. Might be a case of somehow finding out what's making her so sad, and see what you can do to help...

not sure... maybe tell her you think/are trying to understand... and are still interested ^_^


not sure whether i have AS really or not... but i have trouble starting conversations... maybe just get it going.

Chip,

I think honestly that she may be having problems with the physical contact. The hug seems to be the first indication that something has gone wrong. So let me explain to you about us and hypersensitivity to touch, ok? Sometimes the books tell you, but they don't give enough examples for you to really get it and that just leaves you even more confused. (By the way, I think she felt she had to make this decision, not wanted to.)


Here's the deal with our overload issues. Two things can be going on. We don't like to be startled. The hug startled her. To you, it was a very small, friendly, I'm-interested-in-you gesture. To her, it was like a physical affront. It was kind of like suddenly being tackled to the floor and held there would be for you. It shouldn't be that way and it wouldn't be that way, but unfortunately we aren't wired right so that's what happened. (By the way, she didn't cry, so she's not as bad as I used to be.) Did she freeze and just stare at you or off into space? That's pretty typical. I do that all the time. My aunt died, who I was particularly close to and everyone at work came over to me actually crying and they kept hugging me. I spent days with the blank look and frozen. I felt terrible for them because intellectually I knew why they did what they did, but these are not really emotional people so the hugs were a surprise and I froze. I couldn't even talk. That's bad when someone is trying to comfort you. I was horribly embarassed.

So, now go back to her. Everything is going great. You two are clicking. I can tell you this is probably beyond her wildest dreams. Then, the worst thing happens. You hug her. She freezes (doesn't hug you back) and she could probably immediately see your face change. She doesn't quite know why, but she knows when this has happened in the past it has caused hurt feelings or anger or both. She gets into trouble. She doesn't know how to stop it. And, what in the world is she going to do when this moves on to hand holding? Kissing? More hugging? Sex? What if it actually gets to marriage and she can't even handle a hug? What is she going to do then? And, you are obviously a guy someone else would want, so why would you stay with that, day after day, year after year. How long can you possibly handle that? If she can't go there, how will there ever be a family and you must want one or you would not have asked. The more she thinks about that and plays it over and over in her mind, the bigger it becomes until it is all she sees. So, she breaks it off because better to end it now before she cares for you more and really gets hurt. You can find someone else and go on. She cannot. So, she ends it.


But, you do not give up and she cannot let go. So, it begins again and in the end, her fear wins.



If the above isn't the way she felt when you hugged her, another possibility is hypersensitivity to touch. Here's how I explain that to people. For you, a finger touching you is a finger. Just a light touch, right? No big deal. To us, that same finger can be like being hit with a baseball, a belt, a hammer, a door, or even a car. It just depends on how much our brain is overloading us with that message. And here's the killer. We can also get no message at all. The message might not even get there. Just think of faulty wiring. Could be a power surge. Could be intermittent if the wire has a loose connection. Could send no juice at all if the wire is completely disconnected. You with me here? That also happens to us. If that's the case hugging her could have been like getting hit by a door or a car. The result will be same as above because she'll fee the same. Helpless to change it.


Do you see?


So, if I'm right and the hug started it, she doesn't really want to be away from you which is why she maintains contact. Text messaging is great because we don't have to worry about eye contact, touch, body language and subtext of words. It takes all that away. There, we are equal. So there, she tells you what she really feels. That she feels sad and just wants to be alone and cry, because what else can she do when she can't even respond to a hug?


Sometimes the more hope is offered, the greater the loneliness becomes. She doesn't want you to disappear, she wants what holds her back to disappear, but that can never be.



So, having said all of that, be the friend. Ask straight out. I always say to people, Just tell me. Don't think that I will ever get it because I won't. I really am that dense. And, no matter what you say, I won't be offended. Because I am actually that dense too. Pretty harsh, but effective. It usually got it out in the open. She hasn't learned that, but in truth, that is how it is. We will never get it. You just have to say it straight out. So, ask her. Are you an Aspie? She may freeze. She may fall apart. She may have to go off for a week and process it. But, she will tell you the truth. We don't know how to do anything else. And, if she tells you yes, then say, let's talk about that night. You don't need to be afraid. I am your friend first and you can tell me anything. I may not always understand, but I can always keep trying until I do and right now I can't stand to see you in all this pain and not try to help.

Then just be quiet, no matter how long it takes. It may seem like forever before she can talk, but eventually she will. And, you will find out why. If you don't understand, then read, research or just come back and we will help.


I can guarantee you one thing. If she tells you about her pain, she doesn't want to be alone. She wants someone to hear her and understand. That's what you need to do if you really care and it sounds like you do.


I hope that helps.


P.S. And by the way, I can't stand to be hugged either and it took me forever to be okay with all the rest of it, but my NT boyfriend did not give up and did not let it scare him. He just stuck around and stayed loyal to me no matter how confusing it got. We've been married almost 26 years. So, it can work out. It just takes some work, that's all.

Last edited by ZanneMarie on 24 Feb 2007, 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

Thanks for the reply Shale. I think she is sad because of the lack of progression and she feels uncomfortable 'laying the card on the table'. She hasn't told me of her AS. But maybe she thinks she did, with hints and mannerisms, is that possible? I think it is. That makes me wonder if I should do it for her. Perhaps I should greet her next time by saying something like 'hows my most favorite Aspie doing today', or something like that to break the ice. I mean it's kinda dumb but it puts it out there. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

As far as physical presence, you may be right, though I'm guessing. She invited me to watch the superbowl with her after only speaking to her for a short time. She said, we could watch the game and interview each other, which is one of those 'things' that maked me wonder. Our presence with each other was fine and good, though at the time I didn't know about AS and I was my bubbly self and the hug at the end caused some more overload I think, sigh.

Well, we do tend to go right into things if we think they are right. Many of us never even dated and went straight from hanging out to marriage. We all kind of think dating is confusing and pointless. (Just laugh, it's ok) Your bubbly self might have already had her tired and overloaded, but if she asked YOU to watch the game and interview each other, she was serious. We don't do anything casually. She may also think that you are too extroverted and you'll get tired of her introverted self (if she is) or her inability to navigate the social world (if she is extroverted).


I wouldn't fall apart at the aspie comment. It would probably make me smile. Like, Hey! He got it. No one ever gets it. And if she finds out you've read all the books, that will endear you to her. We like research.


Here's another hint. We do better when we talk about things in the third person. So you can also talk about it like it happened to someone else. That will make it less threatening. Personally, I think she wants you to hear HER.

Last edited by ZanneMarie on 24 Feb 2007, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Looks like a bit of post lag there but I hope you read ZanneMarie's post Fark, it shed a lot of light onto things for me too! Definitely reckon she wants you there...that fear hypothesis is probably bang on too.

ZanneMarie - knowing that Aspies are hypersensitive to touch, process it differently to us...does prior warning help make it feel less like having a door thrown against you? As in, letting an Aspie know you intend to hold their hand or touch their shoulder etc, rather than just glomping them? Thankfully in my situation there's usually some prior indication from me that I'm gonna hug my man before I do, and I think he's only a little sensitive to touch...but still, I don't want to be overloading him

Yes, warning helps a great deal. Also, Shale, be careful how much. Think of it like desensitizing us. Emotions tend to overwhelm us easily. So add it slowly. Add touch slowly. It's something that increases as we get comfortable.

Just remember, alot of what we do goes in exact opposition to everything you know about the world. It isn't meant to be hurtful, we really don't know how to respond or we get frightened and we pull back. We do so much better with the intellectual. I'll get all hot bothered if you talk to me about physics! That is a hot date!

ZanneMarie, thank you so much. Yes, I agree my bubbly self drove the sensory mercury up and the hug was like a final blow, more sighs.

Actually I am introverted. Personality wise I am an iNTj which anyone can google if interested. The Geocities explanations seem to be most sensible and flowing. I'm a 126 IQ and score 16.0 on that online Aspie scale.

Thanks again, so much, to all that responded. You are wonderful and I am surpised how much you're willing to offer help. I will write more tomorrow.

wops, this one was a duplicate of the above ^

Last edited by chipmcc1 on 22 Feb 2007, 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

I am also INTJ. No need to explain that one. How on earth did you do bubbly? You must have really been excited. Anyway, if you're an INTJ, you'll be fine.

Chip.

Interesting.

I'm 19 and an ESTJ, and a borderline AS/NT. I'm more NT then AS.

I'm also the res psych date doc....sorta.

I'm not sure what I can offer, on the subject of romance since both of ye are both mega older then me.....but I can say that if you like her.........DO NOT GIVE UP.

I'm thinking that you may be the first guy who has liked her this much and she's not sure where that's going to go for her. it may be that she may have had heart break in her life before and isn't sure how to cope with it. Mainly because if she's showing signs of withdrawl from the world, then we're looking probably at depression in slightly severe case.

I would advise you to tell her about this site........actually no, more of a hint about it....see where it leads.

As for you.

Keep strong and going fer what your doing.

---Doc Gamester---

I am an INFP. Howdy!

She may have other things going on. It may not necessarily be Aspergers/AS.

She may have had a childhood where she was physically or sexually abused. She may have problems with depression. It does sound as if she's spent time in therapy or in the mental health system if she's using phrases like "I could with the right support". If you want a family some day, that would be a red flag right there. She'd be the children's mother. What type of 'support' would she need?

May I ask what attracts you to her? By all indications she is not available. Emotionally, or physically.

Kudos though, on not judging her harshly. How very non INTJ of you.

He's using his T to inform his J. That's your F talking. LOL We actually remove ourselves and look at the "situation" and try to figure it out. His F (if it exists) is probably shuffled off somewhere until he solves this. That is, if his T score is not close to his F score. If that's the case, he may flip back and forth as suits.

Here's what they say about INTJs in love. Very true of me. Chip will have to speak for himself.


INTJs as Lovers

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"To love means to open ourselves to the negative as well as the positive - to grief, sorrow, and disappointment as well as to joy, fulfillment, and an intensity of consciousness we did not know was possible before." -- Rollo May


INTJs live much of their lives inside their own heads. They constantly scan their environment for new ideas and theories which they can turn into plans and structures. Sometimes, what they see and understand intuitively within themselves is more pure and "perfect" than the reality of a close personal relationship. INTJs may have a problem reconciling their reality with their fantasy.

INTJs are not naturally in tune with their own feelings, or with what other people are feeling. They also have a tendency to believe that they are always right. While their self-confidence and esteem is attractive, their lack of sensitivity to others can be a problem if it causes them to inadvertantly hurt their partner's feelings. If this is a problem for an INTJ, they should remember to sometimes let their mate be the one who is right, and to try to be aware of the emotional effect that your words have upon them. In conflict situations, INTJs need to remember to be supportive to their mate's emotional needs, rather than treating the conflict as if it is an interesting idea to analyze.

Sexually, the INTJ enjoys thinking about intimacy, and about ways to perfect it. In positive relationships, their creativity and intensity shine through in this arena. In more negative relationships, they might enjoy thinking about sex more than actually doing it. They're likely to approach intimacy from a theoretical, creative perspective, rather than as an opportunity to express love and affection. Although, the INTJ who has learned the importance of these kinds of expressions to the health of their relationship is likely to be more verbally affectionate.

INTJs are able to leave relationships when they're over, and get on with their lives. They believe that this is the right thing to do. They may have more difficulty accomplishing the task than they like to exhibit to other people.

INTJs are highly intense, intelligent people who bring a lot of depth and insight into most major areas of their life. In terms of relationships, their greatest potential pitfall is the tendency to think about things rather than doing them, and their difficulty reconciling reality with their inner visions. INTJs are likely to be in positive, healthy relationships, because they're likely to leave relationships which aren't working for them (unless other circumstances prohibit that).

Although two well-developed individuals of any type can enjoy a healthy relationship, the INTJ's natural partner is the ENFP, or the ENTP. INTJ's dominant function of Introverted Intuition is best matched with a partner whose personality is dominated by Extraverted Intuition.

This is for friendship.


INTJs as Friends

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INTJs are usually difficult to get to know well, and difficult to get close to. Those who are close to the INTJ will highly value them for their ideas and knowledge. Although INTJs are generally very serious-minded people, they also have been known to enjoy letting loose and having fun, if others pull them into it. They also can be really good at telling jokes, and exhibiting a sarcastic wit with a poker face.

The INTJ is not likely to choose to spend time with people who they feel don't have anything to offer the INTJ. They especially like to spend time with other Intuitive Thinkers, and also usually enjoy the company of Intuitive Feelers. These personality types love to theorize and speculate about ideas, and so can usually relate well to the INTJ, who loves to analyze ideas.

Many INTJs believe that they are always right. In some INTJs, this belief is quite obvious, while in others it is more subtle. Some people may have a difficult time accepting what they see as a "superior attitude" or "snobbery". Not to imply that INTJs are snobbish, just that some people with strong Feeling preferences may perceive them that way. And some individuals simply have no interest in the theoretical pursuits which the INTJ enjoys.



So, that personality is very close to many Aspie traits. He may just be like me and think the intellectual connection and other shared interests are rare and it is worth working all the other stuff out. It just depends on where his scores are at in each one. My husband is OCD (extremely OCD), but I don't even notice that. It would drive anyone else out of their mind. He doesn't get bothered by the fact that he lives with an alien. The first time he tried to hug me like that I screamed like Jaime Lee Curtis in Halloween and started crying. He just started teasing me about it, going Das wird verboten. German always makes me laugh, so it would get me over it and make it not such a big deal. Sometimes it's the quirks in both that make it work. It just depends on if those quirks fit together. If his J determines she's the one after T and N are done analyzing, it's going to be almost impossible to shake that belief. That's why we're called "The Scientist."

Thanks for your post Popsicle. Yes, it could be something else, but AS fits it to a 'T' when I replay every moment in my head when trying to make sense of it all. Honestry I don't know too much about clinical depression, but I can tell you that my girl hasn't missed a minute of work. I know if I were depressed, I would call a time out and take a little time off. She has a very nice family, I don't see a valid abuse scenario.

Why am I attracted? She very cute, totally honest, she has a wonderous sense of humor, extremly feminine voice and words come out like ornaments(hard to explain), pretty eyes and the way she looks at me, the way she walks, you know, all those kind of things.

I'd love to get to know her more but can't in the present status quo.

More good stuff ZanneMarie, thanks. I guess 'Bubbly' wasn't the right word to use. I was trying to say I was being extroverted. In my employment, I graduated to the position of president in a coproration. I had to learn to be extroverted in that trek, to 'make things happen'. I like all the personality profiling and reading about the conclusions. In my case they are spot on. But I also think it's important to recognize that our choices and decisions are effected by life's experiences too, and can overule our personality at times. Sometimes with good results and sometimes not. In this case I was being extroverted to make things happen, dumb(chip bangs head on table).