Son was dumped by NT, but he's not getting over it

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This is a strange thing to write about, but I'm getting really scared and frustrated.

My son is on a Mormon mission, which lasts for two years -- he still has six months left before he comes home. When he left, he was in a serious (marriage plans in the future) relationship with a very nice NT girl. He was 19, she was 18. They were both very young, but they did seem fairly well matched. They are both very bright kids with a liberal slant to their politics.

Anyway, this NT girl dumped my son for another guy. This is not surprising -- most guys that go on missions get dumped by their girlfriends. Two years is just too long for most girls to wait, to go without dating, etc. So I'm totally understanding of the NT girl not wanting to wait, and finding another boyfriend.

The trouble is, my son is still hoping that they will get back together. And this girl is the type that would string him along, kind of as a backup plan. She's a gorgeous girl, and very experienced with guys (not sexually, just she's dated a lot). She also comes from a very dysfunctional family who are not Mormon (although the girl is Mormon) -- the father is a lot older than the mother, the mother is an alcoholic. The only reason that I mention that is that it seems to have provided a weird dynamic in her family -- her mother is more like a sibling than a mother, so this NT girl fights a lot with her mother. The girl is very responsible and capable, gets terrific grades, has a full scholarship to university, and again, is beautiful, all which provides good attention (normal attention) from the father. So she is really good at manipulating men. This doesn't make her evil, it just makes her adept at manipulating men.

My son, on the other hand, is less-experienced with dating. He's a handsome kid too, which initially attracts girls, but he's goofy, which usually makes the girls go away after a while. This girl enjoyed him because he's bright and handsome, but she doesn't value his goodness. He, on the other hand, has developed this "perfect picture" of his ex-NT girlfriend in his mind, and he's thinking that she just may come back to him, somehow.

Should I just not worry about this? Should I just drop it? Or is there some way I can get him to understand what this girl is really like? Or can I get someone else to convince him? I want him to marry a girl of his choice someday, but because this girl has dumped him, our entire family will never view her in the same way that he does. I guess we are just feeling very protective of him. I also want him to be able to picture this girl as she is (somewhat egotistical, high-maintenance, likes "things") and be able to recognize these tendencies in future girls so that he can avoid them. I'm probably asking too much, right?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Kris

No real insight other than I'm 36 and never had a girl friend so I'm
hopefull your son will be fine in time since he has allready had a girl friend.

Greetings Kris. I'm John. I'm sort of the Res board psych, advisor, and general date doc. in other words, I can help.

I'm an NT/AS borderliner, I was AS since probably 4th grade when I got diagnosed, and am now a freshman writing lit major in my second semester.

You ask should you be worried? Initally, since I have not met your son I would say at this time to possibly say yes, due to the fact that if he has/had a fantasy type view of his ex (the picture perfect term is something we try and stay away from in descriptions, if you had a more general over all word, that'd be more helpful.) then he's going to have problems getting over her.

The set of questions I will be asking, are those that I give to a lot of people in this situation. for this sake, since some of the questions have already been answered, not all will be used. may be only two.

Question one: Was said girl the first girl that your son ever dated?

I bring this question up a lot, because this will determine the psychological and emotional effect that it will have on him. The fact that they were planning on getting married, that is a factor which could put stress at a lot higher bounds, and determine what will happen.

Question two: Was your son in any way "obsessed" with his ex?

I know that you say he had a "perfect picture" view of her, but that does not in all cases show an obsession with the person. What I am asking is did he call her every night and talk to her, and did they hang out a lot? like every day or such as the case may be?

Question three: How long were they dating?

I always ask this, becuase it's important to know.


Hope you can answer my questions and I can help you.

-Gamester--

Gamester:

Thanks so much for writing.

To answer your questions -- this was NOT my son's first girlfriend. She was probably the second or third over a period of four years. He has always had lots of friends, and that included girl friends, but to my knowledge he has had about three girls that were considered girlfriends (I get this information from his 16 year old sister, who would know). He was dating the latest girl who he planned to marry for well over a year, BUT, having said that, he started dating her seriously for about a month before he left for college. While at college, they talked on IM and on the phone. He did not date other people while at college, because he is a very loyal sort (as most aspies are). I don't know if she dated during this "college" period (she was finishing up her last year at high school). They saw each other during Christmas vacation, and then in the summer before he went on his mission. They probably spent, at most, six months actually being physically together, but the rest of the time was over the phone and Instant Messaging.

I don't think (?) he was obsessed with her. I think he is obsessed currently with the mental picture that they made together of what married life would be like. But when he was dating her, they had a very typical, enjoyable relationship -- they were very much a joking, sarcastic type of couple. It bugged me how he would talk to her on the phone and play "Caesar" on the computer at the same time, not really paying attention to the conversation, but a lot of guys do that I think. It had been my impression that he was the mature one in the relationship (although she is very mature) in that she asked his advice about things. I did not detect an obsessive quality to his relationship with her. Most times he was excited to receive a phone call from her, but not overly excited. Sometimes he was kind of annoyed if she showed too much attention. At one stage, apparently, she was being too coy and teasing him too much, and he considered dumping HER for another girl, so I would guess that points to a lack of obsessiveness. I think because of the ease of it, they instant messaged daily, but I don't think phone calls were a daily occurrence, and I know that when he was home from college, they did not hang out on a daily basis.

I think that he was looking forward to life being settled -- i.e. his future career planned out (urban planning), his future wife planned out (ex girlfriend) and everything settled. What he doesn't seem to be facing is the fact that this girl has a history of really enjoying fighting with her alcoholic mother -- which I worry that will be transferred to her really enjoying fighting with HIM. I don't think that he wants to face how important it was to this beautiful girl that she have constant attention from men -- from my son, but from others as well. I have to admit that she would seem to be the perfect girlfriend -- she is a lovely, dark-haired girl of Italian extraction. Even though she is beautiful, she is very very bright and very serious about her academic pursuits. She has a good sense of humor. Unfortunately, though, our family is very dynamic -- lots of talks about politics, religion, current events -- and all of us (even my son) felt like we ran out of things to talk about with this girl. For a really smart girl, she was somewhat one-dimensional. Kind of boring, really. None of us could put our finger on it -- we just knew that we quickly ran out of things to talk about with her. But with a guy, that wouldn't be all that important when you're blinded by beauty!

Anyway, that about sums it up. I just wonder if a guy with Asperger's Syndrome can be reasoned with in this situation -- is there a way I can help him see the reality of this girl (she's dating someone else, probably has been for over a year, and may even be engaged), or should I just relax and let him adjust by himself. So far, I've been emailing him, and trying to gently point out that his family and his friends knew that this girl wouldn't be right for him. But my gentle approach hasn't helped him much. I wonder if being blatantly honest would be a better approach? Or would it be too unkind?

Kris

He needs to realize that people can't be controlled, he cannot control how other people behave, he can only improve himself. He really needs to hang around other guys that have gone through the same thing he has. I'd pick him up a copy of Neil Strauss's "The game"... he REALLY needs to read that.

Tell him to go check out

www.sosuave.net
http://www.themysterymethod.com/forum/

The truth is she left him because the other guy was adding more value and happyness to her life, so I would encouage your son to see women from an evolutionary perspective and realize that peoples hearts cannot be controlled, and that the only way to encourage people to stay with you is to become a better more likable person.

Hey, I'm totally behind your post, Mordy. That's exactly what he needs.

The trouble is, right now he's in a very unusual situation where he's only around other Mormon missionaries, and there's no contact with other girls except talking to them -- no dating. So he's thinking if he's only good enough, or works hard enough on being a good, nice guy, she'll come back to him. The reality is, she has a short attention span (as many 19 year old girls do) and went for the bird in the hand rather than the bird that's on a mission. And who wouldn't? The reality is, he can't control this situation at all, no matter how good a guy he is.

I kind of feel like once he's off the mission, he'll be beneficially distracted by college life, and new girls, and this won't be much of an issue at all. Lucky for us, this ex goes to a different college.

It's ok, he can at least gain perspective by reading BOOKS and posts on forums. Thats the big thing, he needs to develop the proper perspective on how women work or else he will be flying blind in his decision making. The thing with AS is that AS guys have a persistance of feelings and relations that other people do not... I'll give you an example:

When I meet someone and establish some kind of connection with them, it never diminishes in me like it does in other people. I have what might be called an "assumed rapport", even if I have not seen that person in months or a year. When I was young I assumed other people were just extended family members and tried to approach them in that way... after many years I've come to realize that some AS traits are positive but not in a world which is demographically challenged like the one we live in. A world of people that are very different and are always on the defensive mentally and emotionally, a result of their evolutionary programming or what might be termed "their nature".

The big thing is he needs to understand that if he wants to keep women he must himself become a more sociable and likable guy, unfortunately I do not believe in "just being yourself", I used to "just be myself", and if you're something girls will never be attracted to then you will be living a lonely life.

Say someone is:
1) Obsessed with video games to an abnormal degree (consumes majority of the persons time)
2) Never goes out socially, prefers to stay in
3) Super intellectual, spends hours reading the internet/books and is never bored.
4) Depressed, unhappy, anxious, fearful around people.
5) Does not know how to communicate with other people and make friends, talks in an academic, emotionally remote, unemotional fashion.
6) Is not psychologically rewarded with happy feelings for socializing and engaging others

As you can see if you are the above person, and do not change, there is no way you will ever have any kind of happy life. People parrot wisdom like they KNEW something, but most people do not. The are clueless... you should NEVER take advice from anyone who doesn't see clearly or have the true perspective and experience to explain things.

Most people "Parrot" little sayings and quotes that seem like wisdom, but they are nothing more then ignorance without a context. For instnace:

1) Go to school and you'll be able to get a good paying job
2) Just be yourself (in terms of relationships, etc)
3) You can be anything

Now, the above statements seem true, but not without a context. For instance telling an extremely beautiful girl she can be a model, and trying to tell the ugliest girl on the planet she can be one... are entirely different things. People will spout what seems like wisdom without context, and many blindly follow it until they are shown through experience that it is not wisdom at all.


Back to women, Women do not work on "predictable" or moral principles unfortunately... the good girl thing is all a sham. Underneath women are animals just like everyone else, except more so.

Girls want to:

1) Have fun
2) Be teased (playfully, flirtatiously, they love to be insulted in a "smooth" fun way)
3) Be around a guy who couldn't care less what she thinks
4) Be with a guy that Can easily find another girl, (guy quality factor, competition factor, i.e. will another girl snatch him away from me?)
5) Is a strong guy (emotionally, financially, etc)
6) That he is a fun guy to be around and people WANT to be around him. Girls get extremely jealous.

Girls are:
1) Girls are emotional creatures first, logical creatures second... they make decisions based on how someone or something makes them feel.
2) Girls hate boring predictable guys who do have no passion for life and change (i.e. expanding your horizons, exploring things, doing things you've never done before, etc).
3) Girls fear most of all being with a guy who will suck the life (passion, happyness) out of them.
4) Girls hate anxious, needy guys, who are afraid of people and have been wussified by modern society.

And I'm barely scratching the surface with that.

Indeed.

You make a good point Mordy.

Schlepp.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that at this point, that you just need to be blunt with him. The fact that she dumped him. that was her problem, not his.

Am I saying he might get depressed because of this? Yes. Suicidal? At this point in time, I can't offer a definite answer on that. I know how he feels. my first girlfriend dumped me and three days later started dating a jerk of a guy and everyone knew it, including her friends, yet she wouldn't listen to me. There were times when I almost went to where she lived with a small possy to mess with the punk, to make it a point of explaining why not to mess with a girl as nice as her. I got depressed, majorly which was two summers ago, and didn't return to normal until January of last year due to intvervention by a then close girl-friend of mine. But the fact that she was not his first, may be a better thing, because he knows that there is always the future.

When you describe his personality as goofy is that the only personality trait you can give him? I ask this because if he's had more then two girls, then he may be able to compete with the best of them. Would you describe his other personality traits as a regular joe with the occassional luck with women or more of a Don Juan suave debonair type personality. Sounds weird asking this I know, but I think you might be understanding why I'm asking this.

Mordy's comment "The thing with AS is that AS guys have a persistance of feelings and relations that other people do not..." is ABSOLUTELY true, especially in my son's case. That is an extremely valid point that I will use when I email him -- he has this loyalty thing that always goes beyond all reason. It's an admirable trait, but it hurts him in the end. Very valuable information in your post, Mordy.

Gamester, I HAVE been blunt with my son, in exactly the same way you described. It's almost as if he hears it, briefly, for that moment, but then his rendition of how life would have been with her in the future overtakes my bluntness, and he forgets the impact of what I've said.

To explain his personality, especially with women --

His growing up years he was much like others on this forum -- he was very bright, very academically sound, but socially he had problems. Not too bad, but I know that life was not fun for him during elementary school. Never really had close friends. We made a move to Utah right at middle school age, and amazingly, he had WONDERFUL middle school years. He attended a school that was just incredibly accepting of differences, and the emphasis was on being NICE, not on achieving in sports or even academics. It was a great experience. We then moved back to our old area, and although he had a couple rough years, by now his personality was beginning to shine, and he was turning into an attractive young man. The outgoing, hilarious and funny personality that he showed at home, but kept quiet when in public, he was beginning to let out. Kids his age were beginning to like him. Not all kids -- he can be overly opinionated, so that bothers some -- but many liked him. Girls began to really like him. But he hung out in groups, so it was hard to notice if anyone was pairing off with him. In college, things GREATLY improved. It seemed as if he finally found his niche, and EVERYONE liked him. Only after he went to college did I find out just how many girls were interested in him. Frankly, I was somewhat surprised at this change. I thought he was terrific, but I also knew about the goofiness, such as the expectation that his opinions should be everyone's opinions, his preference in music that hardly anyone else liked, his innocence combined with a hardened exterior, and his romantic notions that are extremely old-fashioned. He is an interesting guy, but because I think he's wonderful doesn't mean everyone does! And yet, some girls were. He had a crush on a girl when he was 14 or 15, and at first she was flattered, but then he began to lay it on thick, giving her too much attention too fast, and she didn't like the attention. Well,his response to this rejection was that he began to write poetry online about committing suicide. A very sudden change in behavior, a very strong and violent reaction to what was his first crush. Very scary for us parents. So, understandably, we are more than a little concerned about this breakup, especially when we are so far away from him. He does seem to be doing well, in spite of the breakup, but he just seems to be not mentally letting her go.

I'm really grateful to you, gamester, for your personal experience. And I think that Mordy is right -- this persistence of feeling is an amazing thing in Aspies -- Aspies do not seem to get over a relationship as quickly as NT's do. It's that very aspect that I'm trying to kind of "break." I want to point out just how many girls were interested in him while he was dating this girl, and I think that basically he knows that, and he is emailing some of these girls, and that's a good sign. I guess I just want to help him through this break up so that he knows how to handle future breakups. There are many breakups in one's life before the real deal with a significant other occurs, and learning how to deal successfully with these situations can carry over into other aspects of life.

I look forward to more insight from you.

Kris

hmm.

I'm going to have to look more into my past to give you insight Kris.

Mainly because I'm thinking that your son may also have a split personality type syndrome, which is dangerous, because of the fact that it only showed itself once. in that he wrote poetry online and had a violent reaction to that rejection.

I do know from my time at my high school in the program for those with special needs there were only one or two cases that had a violent reaction to a breakup. Somthing almost akin to what your son had.

The fact that he's emailing some of these girls that apparently had an interest in him while he was dating said girl. My hunch is that he's gonna try to ask one of these girls out. Which I'm thinking isn't a good idea. Because right now he needs to stay single and realize many things, many of which you pointed out. He isn't ready for a relationship yet. His goofyness puts him on a mental level that would be disasterous for any relationship within the coming timeframe of his coming home from mission. My gut reaction is to say the same thing.

His opinionated nature and thinking others should agree with him. That may also be a bit of a troublesome spot. I'm a Republicrate.....a mix of Democrate and Republican, and even I find myself knowing when to shut up on things that might make people want to hate me for my beliefs in. The point I'm making is that his nature might lead him to always be wanting a special companion, and that is where disaster could find itself.

--Gamester--

Hi Kris,
I'm William. I am also the date doctor who sometimes assists Gamester on advice, even though I never had an actual gf of my own.

Concerning your son: Since your son is AS, he is now indulging himself in a fantasy realm where he is now thinking that he & the NT girl are married. From my personal perspective, if your son's behavior continues like this, then it may turn into stalking said girl. He may not have a split personality since it showed itself only once but you may need to keep an eye on him in case he brings the matter up.

Questions:
How compatible were your son & the NT girl?
How is your son dealing with this?
Have other girls tried to befriend him?
When does he believe he is ready for a relationship?
Is he eventually going to be able to let her go?

AnonAnon. hey man. that's a great point that he may have hit rock bottom with the fantasy realm idea. I wouldn't put it past his son if that were too happen, and I'm wishing I had worked with this type of problem before. Thing is I think we have to see how he does when he returns from Mission, that's when the whole shebang is gonna go down.

William, I'll answer some of your questions, but I really think you're right about the fantasy realm that you spoke of. That is what he's complaining about -- that during the day, he does his missionary work, but at night he can't stop replaying things in his mind about his ex. This sounds like the "fantasy realm", and he doesn't know how to shut it out.

I'm not too concerned about him stalking said girl once he's off of the mission. She lives a good 45 minutes away from us, when they are both home from college, and she goes to a completely different university, albeit in the same state, but it too is about 45 minutes away from him. Hopefully he is not the stalking kind, but you never know to what lengths a guy will go when he's in unrequited love. Even NT's do unusual things in this situation.

To answer questions:

1. He and this girl were very compatible, intellectually, socially even, but they were incompatible in dating experience. She had much more experience than he had. He had some experience, but nowhere the amount that she has had ever since she was about 12.

2. My son deals with this well one week, and not well the next. He does his work on his mission, and the beautiful thing about missions is that you gain a lot in the way of male companionship. It's almost like boot camp. You suddenly have about twenty new brothers around, most of who have been through this exact situation of being dumped by their girlfriend. So, in that way, he has a companion who is constantly with him, telling him that the girl's not worth it, things will improve, I've been through it myself, you need to concentrate on other stuff, etc. The only trouble is, my son's an undiagnosed aspie, and though he appears pretty NT to others, in certain ways he is not. This breakup is one of those ways.

3. Yes, other girls have tried, and have been successful, in befriending him. One, who was recently married (she would have liked to have married my son, but he was dating the ex-girlfriend) has tried over and over again to prove to him how not worth it this ex was. She is a VERY good friend, and possibly the only one he might listen to.

4. I'll have to ask him when he believes he is ready for a relationship. I really don't have an answer to that one.

5. I do believe he will eventually be able to let her go. I think even he believes this. But he just doesn't know how to stop thinking about her currently. I have to admit that when I was in a similar situation, I didn't stop thinking about the ex either. BUT, I would constantly think about the ex in kind of a positive/negative way, i.e. I would find myself thinking about the ex, and then I would remind myself how stupid I was for dating said ex, and I sure wasn't going to date that kind of guy again -- next time I was going to move farther up the evolutionary scale. I call this the "hairshirt" experience, where you use something annoying to your benefit.

Thanks for ALL of your help, people.

He will be able to let her go. But it will take time. and the fact that he's not at home. that's all the harder because of that. If he were at time and able to come to terms with it, then it might be easier. But I'm thinking that he's trying to deal with it in his own way, and not with the support of his family by his side.

At this point, when he gets home, which is in about 6 months or so, we may find that he's ready to date again. But I'm advising that there be at least a wait of another six months or so. The reasoning behind this is that while he may think he's ready to try again, he won't be. You don't know how drastically his personality will be affected, you've said that it varies week to week on how he feels and how he deals with it nightly.

That's all I have to offer now.

--Gamester--

Absolutely excellent replies on this topic everyone --

I really feel like I understand the situation better, and can get a grip on the process that it's going to take for my son to get over this. Can't thank you all enough.

Kris

I don't think there is anything you can really do. He will just have to learn the hard way and time will help him get over her if the worst comes to worse. I had a lot of trouble getting over girls too. I totally understand.