Dale Carnegie on being a conversationalist

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I've posted a number of times on the relationship between being social and meeting/chatting with new people in a dating context. In my reading, I ran across this from Dale Carnegie on how to be a good conversationalist and found it encouraging:

What strikes me about this was the last bit, that Carnegie barely gets a word in edgewise but rather just lets the other guy talk. This is a guy who had written several books and taught classes on public speaking. It's encouraging to me because it means that having a charismatic personality or being an extrovert doesn't nor shouldn't matter. In my own experience, I've never been accused of being a big, dumb, idiot before I opened my mouth. This is encouraging to someone like me because it reminds me that I don't have to say anything to impress people.

His whole point is that people love to talk so you should let them. Its not rocket science. However to keep the other person talking you need to respond at the right time with he right performance that you are an attentive audience and 'lubricate' that person's desire to keep talking so you don't have to. This is key in sales, personal interactions and overall 'charisma'.

The flaw in his argument is that he, as an NT, has the brain wiring to read and respond to body language/vocal tone changes in real-time at a rate that is considered 'normal' and 'expected'. The deviation from that expectation seen by others is literally what disrupts what would normally be a perfectly normal interaction. It gives off unusual 'vibes' is the best way to put it. People notice something is off. That continues to grow the longer the 'conversation' lasts. AS brains have mirror neuron dysfunctions (or different wiring whatever you want to call it..either way it doesn't work the same way as NT's) and that neural network is precisely the one that handles social input (visual/audio) ...and since our performance (output) is based on emulating the input in learned ways it becomes developmental issue so the output comes out 'off'.

Excellent point. The trick is how to keep someone talking.

I'm not sure I see how a person is expected to give the "right performance" according to Carnegie's model, though. You mentioned that it's our "output" that makes us appear "off," to which I fully agree. I'm wondering if the solution is simply reducing the output. NTs seem to have problems reducing the quantity of output causing issues in interpersonal relations. Aspies simply have problems with quality or appropriateness. It seems to me that Carnegie is placing the emphasis on making others feel important. I don't see why that should be that difficult even for an aspie. A lot of NTs seem to believe they are "above" or "superior" to us anyway, so for some of us we already have that little bit of leverage.

I don't think nonverbal issues should necessarily be an impediment, which is why I found this excerpt so poignant. If we have a deficiency in the "output," would it not be logical that keeping someone talking would be a good way to reduce the "off" output that causes us so much trouble? Like, say, getting in the habit of picking out something within the last sentence or three and asking for them to explain further. And then asking to explain the explanation. And then asking to explain the explanation of the explanation. Which reminds me, I heard about what X said to Y. I'd like to think W, but what is your opinion of Z? Oh really? Interesting. And what did you mean by ____? Ah, so you're basically saying? How did you come to that conclusion?

My issue is I get wound up WAY too easily, and I think my WP posts are symptomatic of how I am IRL. It's like sometimes I need to take a Sharpie and write STFU on my arm and take a look at it every now and then.

I wonder if Aspies are listening to someone they find interesting there would be no problem. I know I have in the past had a very difficult time hiding the fact that I find someone uninteresting. Or, I would just blurt out and talk about my own interests instead.

I have said, though, many times on WP and elsewhere: the way I learned to best navigate a social world is to talk (much) less.

There's a lot of wisdom about keeping one's mouth shut in the book of Proverbs. Just sayin'.

No, its not the output alone. Its both the input and output that work in tandem. The output is a result of the input issues during your formative years hence its developmental.

While I normally hate to use wikipedia as a reference I think they put it well in layman's terms:

"Many researchers in cognitive neuroscience and cognitive psychology consider that this system provides the physiological mechanism for the perception/action coupling (see the common coding theory).[3] They argue that mirror neurons may be important for understanding the actions of other people, and for learning new skills by imitation. Some researchers also speculate that mirror systems may simulate observed actions, and thus contribute to theory of mind skills,[7][8] while others relate mirror neurons to language abilities.[9] Neuroscientists such as Marco Iacoboni (UCLA) have argued that mirror neuron systems in the human brain help us understand the actions and intentions of other people. In a study published in March 2005 Iacoboni and his colleagues reported that mirror neurons could discern if another person who was picking up a cup of tea planned to drink from it or clear it from the table.[10] In addition, Iacoboni has argued that mirror neurons are the neural basis of the human capacity for emotions such as empathy.[11]"

Socializing involves real-time, rapid fire exchange of verbal and nonverbal cues. The nonverbal cues are processed automatically and instantly by a normal mirror neuron system. In essence, they 'feel' the very same mood (in a manner of speaking) in their brain that they observe/hear the other person display.

For example, ever see those videos of people hurting themselves? Aka running through the grass stepping on a rake and the wooden handle swinging up and delivering a blow to their testicles? You wince because in your mind your mirror neurons are doing a virtual reality simulation in real time of what that would feel like...if it happened to you. This is a motor-related reaction (aka not social based). NT's have the ability to read other's emotional states in the same way... people with AS can also do it but there is a delay (hence not real-time).

Before I go on its important to note that the mirror neuron system is not a magical telepathy thing. It can misread and be tricked. Actors learn to deceive our mirror neuron system to deliver performances....and if you ever see a video of a little girl breaking into tears ...of overwhelming JOY... but with no sound... your visual input misinterprets it as the girl crying because she is sad or in pain. Mirror neurons only function through audio and visual stimulus.

So, if you are having a chat with someone and that someone flirts with you... an NT instantly and automatically processes that information...its not even cognitive its automatic. Those with AS in contrast, either don't see it at all or they notice it only after a few seconds have passed (cognitive processing).

What happens in the conversation is the person that flirted with you ... notices you didn't flirt back you just continued as if they had done nothing. signal sent to this person: im ignoring you / not interested / oh dear, im so full of myself! . Worse yet, you notice after a few seconds go by (aka, a few sentences have already been spoken after the fact and generally the conversation shifts or 'the time has passed' for your to respond) that ... 'wait.. was that flirt? how do I respond to..oh crap its too late'.

Sound familiar?

This happens with everything. Emotional states, body language, vocal tones,etc. Since these inputs were glitchy in formative childhood years the social parts of your brain did not develop as they should have (speech regions..broca's region,etc) and this generally is the cause of the monotone vocal patterns so many with ASD display: you learned as a child what your brain picked up.. and it didnt pick up subtle changes in pitch so you never incorporated it as part of your speech centers/muscle memory.

There's also a theory that mirror neuron information in NT's are processed first then shunted to the cognitive areas of the brain .. 'feel then think' ... while ASD brains seem to have the neurons wired in reverse.. processed through the cognitive centers first 'think then feel'. I'm no neuroscientists but damn... it sounds its right on the money from my own experiences and observations O.o

@Nerdygirl:

@Dantac: I'm aware of mirror neurons and how they work. I'm more interested in actual behaviors than the mechanics.

Yes, it does sound familiar. I just tend to question exactly how IMPORTANT those things are, i.e. nonverbals. I think "I just don't get it, will you please explain what you mean?" is a perfectly acceptable response. I dunno?if I can't trust a woman to be as real in terms of character as she appears to be superficially, I'm not sure I want to be with her long-term.

And that's the thing. Trying to flirt with someone, when you don't understand flirting and especially don't know that person very well, is not going to work for aspies. If we are going to attract friends and form relationships with the opposite sex, we need a different approach than the "conventional" flirting and innuendo. I'm thinking a lot of the initial problems could be alleviated (note I didn't say "solved") by the overall approach of trying to make others feel important. Sure, it might take more work than it would for NTs. Sure, there might be a lot more social anxiety. But at the same time I think there could be ways to handle this in baby steps enough that it doesn't have to be as stressful as maybe it would be if you tried to approach it the same way NTs do. The key to doing that is getting the other person to talk and keep quiet about yourself.

The other thing I really like about Dale Carnegie is the emphasis on what OTHER people want. In a friendship or even LTR, ideally BOTH parties have this attitude. If I'm busy trying to get someone to talk about herself and she's genuinely curious about me, no amount of me trying to change the subject or shift it back to her is going to work?sooner or later I'm going to have to self-disclose. All I can do is make an effort not to make it all about ME. If I'm constantly making it about her and she never makes it about me, what happens? I stop feeling important, and just like I'd expect her to ditch me because I didn't make her feel important, I'm likely to eventually stop seeing her.

That's the thing - it's always about the other person. At least for me, I rarely actually have any interest in what the other is saying. I think to a certain extent most NTs get something out of a conversation that is absent for us - a kind of spark or connection above the information being exchanged. Which makes the topics less significant than the act of exchanging on them. I find conversations very draining and can only keep up the "act" for short durations. But I agree, people can and will talk endlessly about themselves if they think you are interested.

Well, in Dale Carnegie's universe, it's never about YOU. This was primarily a sales strategy, but you frequently see the same principles practiced by rags-to-riches wealthy folks, politicians, popular folks, etc. It's just most of these people, according to Carnegie, were either naturally gifted with these abilities, were taught them by their families, or learned it through some very unfortunate experiences.

Dale Carnegie basically accepts that all human beings are selfish people who want to feel important. Aspies are no different, except maybe we're more vocal about our self-centeredness. I'm guessing our issue is we fail to see why we should try to make other people feel important. After all, nobody cares enough to make us feel important. So what's the point? In the NT world, it ends up being a two-way street. When you make people feel important, they think you're interesting. Because of that, they desire to help you out-- a reward because you made them feel good about themselves.

I'm not saying a guy can make a girl feel special and expect a reward by getting laid. I'm just saying by making a girl feel important, he wins her interest and desire for more time with him. There's no reason, mirror neurons or no mirror neurons, that keeps aspies solidly from being nice to other people. People used to make fun of the way I talk by saying, "heeeeeey, are yoooooouuuuuuu on craaaaaaaaack? Do yoooouuuu smoke paaaaaaawwwwt?" So I don't talk much, and when I do, people think I'm the most laid-back, chilled out guy they've ever met. I mean, I already get attention. Why not capitalize on that in a positive way by shifting the focus back to them, even the very people who pick on me? I'd like people to say about me, "yeah, he talks funny, but he's pretty cool," than "hey, mush-mouth over there is a total @$$hole. He's weird, probably an axe murderer or something." I never had a long string of gfs or anything, but the few I did have for the most part either got past my weirdness or they found that weirdness attractive. And I think it was being willing to relate to their experiences that did me the most good.

This. Actually, for me, it's not so much that I lack the interest. I'm just too eager to talk about myself!! ! And I lose people every single time I do it, too.

I think it helps more if you actually are interested. For me, it's not so much the topic that I care about as it is the person I'm talking to. If I really care about someone, I'll listen to them drone on for hours about nothing if that's what makes them happy.


Exactly.


Right. If you were genuinely interested, would it make any difference in keeping up the "act"? I.e., if you had a genuine interest, you wouldn't be acting. Would that require more or less energy than trying to fake it? Carnegie warns against counterfeit actions to win people?compares it to counterfeit money. People you pass it to will be angry, and that can ultimately get you in trouble. I don't work in banking, so I don't know what my wife, a head teller, has to deal with, nor do I understand half the self-referential language she uses to describe it. But I do care about HER enough to be her sounding board. If she wants to rant all night and half the morning about job issues, I care enough about her to allow her to do that. I don't have to get three words in edgewise, but she can't picture anyone else being more understanding than I am. IF it's a draining conversation, it's worth the drain.

Yeah, there are people I make the effort for because I like them. But it's hard. I can only do it for a short time. I have to act as I really do have no interest most of the time. Now if someone were upset about something or was having a problem, this is different. Then there is a purpose so am interested. I don't want my friends to be unhappy. But the day to day trivialities kill me.