Men asking before kissing on First Date (again this topic)

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I have been spamming the internet with this question, trying to know what the majority of women think.

Two other users here claimed that the majority of women want to be verbally asked for kiss permission, well this is not what I am seeing so far, not at all:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts16273858.aspx
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general ... ost5892688

Too bad the second thread was closed.

Where else do you think I should ask that?

I would discourage it at all on just the first date.

Maybe on a third or fourth date if there is a lot of flirting and chemsity, make a moment where a kiss can happen. Like sit in front of the sunset, holding hands, stare into her eyes, and gently lean in for a kiss, etc.

but that is only IF there is a real connection/chemistry building by this point in time.

Must be extremely awkward if you have to verbally ask for a kiss. It should be something that occurs naturally once people have a lasting click on the 2nd or 3rd date. If you do not feel comfortable with any physical contact you should tell that on or before your first date, otherwise it might be unfair for the other person and he/she might feel rejected because of that.

Yeah, I don't get the 'ask' thing either. Too formal and kind of ruins the moment. That first time can happen anytime and I don't use formulas in human relations: ie. do this on first date, that on second, etc. What is important is to read the other person correctly and go with what is mutually wanted. And a little daring on the part of the guy isn't a bad thing. On the other hand if I was rebuffed I would respect that and likely apologize for misreading/misunderstanding the moment.

I'm not exactly a "most women" kind of girl when it comes to stuff like this, but unless a guy wants to be unintentionally shoved back by me, then they better be asking before trying to kiss me. I think it comes down to the woman, but most women would rather you not ask.

Understood and certainly your prerogative. I am trying to remember if I ever got thumped... but nothing is coming to mind. I do know others who have though. One was hit so hard he lost his footing and rolled to the bottom of a steep embankment. But let me ask what about the case where you want to kiss him or want to be kissed by him? Do you do nothing and just wait, or would you try to initiate it in some way?

I think it is extremely charming and shows character if he asks - even when he senses that it would be the right moment.

It seems like a difficult area: on one hand, it might be perceived as awkward, but on the other, not doing so involves a lot of non-verbal understanding and certainty that there is mutual consent, which maybe isn't easy enough to ascertain.

How about men who discover through the course of their date with some women that they would rather suck a lemon than shake hands with them much less kiss them, prepare and offer a legal document of the acceptance of kisses by the women requiring them to sign and notarize the document before he risks violating the new social construct and its various applicable laws?

Watch how fast the parting wave becomes much more attractive to either party. What a great way to dodge that bullet!

Will this subject never die??

Anyways, one thing that confuses me is how some people equate asking with not being confident. In my opinion, it takes equal amounts of confidence to either ask or to just go for a kiss...you make your intentions known either way, and both take major courage unless the person you're with is giving extremely obvious signals (most people are far more subtle). The only difference is that asking ensures that both people want the same thing, while just going for it can be much more of a gray area.

Just lean in towards her. If she follows suit, you're good to go. If she backs off or pushes you away, its a 'no'

In my experience, I don't kiss on the first date, it just doesn't seem right. Maybe a kiss on the cheek at the most, but aside from that a simple hug would be better I find.

I'd ask though on the next date, or hell, the next several ones.

First date might be pushing it.

Even if it seems kind of awkward to just outright ask, I think it's the most courteous thing to do in the long run, (this coming from a girl).

I feel the need to point out that the 2 posters you're referring to never claimed that a "majority of women" anything, only that some women want to be asked so that their personal space/bodies aren't invaded without their permission, which I'm pretty sure is within their rights, no?

So many different things about this. It depends on the girl, it depends on the guy, it depends on what they seek.

I've gotten quite good with girls, both autistic and neurotypical girls, kissed and done everything with a handful now.

Basically for some girls, asking or engaging their mind will break the moment for them. A lot of neurotypical girls and a lot of autistic girls who are uncomfortable and unknowing, if you engage their conscious mind in it fully will automatically say no. For girls not very experienced with sexuality, not very secure, not very mature they really just don't know and their instinct is too avoid the mystery, the intense, out of comfort zone. A lot of girls basically work their way into sexual comfort and sexual exploration by sort of 'logging out' so to say, mentally. This is why so many love alcohol, going to places where they will be dominated by men who direct them. They know they want 'something', they aren't really sure, they just go on feeling in the moment, if the moment is feeling right, and their body is giving out obvious signs and they are being closer and closer to you, female instinct I think is to just sort of 'succumb' to masculinity taking and directing them. They want a 'real man' so to say, as dumb a metaphor as that is, but what they want is someone who they can melt into putty around and let him direct everything. Its a way for them to give off the intensity and full responsibility of fully understanding or comprehending everything. Most neurotypical girls want this I find. They want you to feel them and navigate them emotionally through body language, they don't want logic and full awareness in it, they want it to be visceral and purely intuitive and taking it out of purely intuitive feeling and into the mind will signal to them you aren't right, and for a lot of girls who you could kiss or could have sex with, fully asking them they will just automatically say no. It is really f****d up the more you notice it. Younger neurotypical girls as in less than 28 years old I think tend to be like this. I was attracted to and chased girls like that for a while when younger because, they were the same age as me, I also wasn't mature enough to fully engage my mind consciously in everything, neither were they. It was just an experiment in feeling, and unconscious development of feelings.

For example I was at a nightclub the other night dancing around, and a young very cute girl starts dancing really closely in front of me, very sexually, leaning back, giving all the signs I know of to move in. I've seduced other neurotypical following the same cues she was giving, you just put your arms around them, pull them close, dance sexually together, turn her on, build comfort. There is not logic or mind in it, all feeling. But this girl the other night that was dancing like that in front of me, just out of curiosity I thought, just for experiments sake I will ask. So before following all her cues which I know would have led to sex, before touching her, I just tapped her on the shoulder and asked "Do you want me to touch you?" and she did a double take, I could see her eyes almost open a little more, waking up to the situation of her bodily instincts, and immediately she said no and was weirded out. Like in that instance, engaging her mind fully, I pulled her out of her visceral, feeling, intuitive sexual instincts that she typically runs on and pulled her into a state of self-reflection and conscious awareness she wasn't comfortable with, or didn't know how to be sexual in and immediately she was weirded out not so much by me, but more the realization of her mind now being fully aware of what she was doing. She became 'self-conscious', conscious of her self fully. I think when your younger and first exploring sex, thats just the way it has to be, feeling, intuitive, non logical, not fully consciously aware of everything, but just bodily intuitive. This is why when younger, a lot of people really hurt people with sexual relations, because its all just feeling based, they don't take their mind into it, its just a release of body chemicals and unconscious raw feelings not integrated with fully conscious awareness and their identity. So then people get all these intense bodily emotions from sexual interrelation, not connected to their mind, and as they know the person more, their mind becomes more connected to it all, revealing some discongruence between where their body and mind is.

But as I've gotten older, and as I've been with more girls who are autistic. I find the older the girl is and more autistic she is the more you actually want to fully engage her mind. That you must, that it is most ideal. And also as I have gotten older, I increasingly want a girl that does NOT want to be dominated. Girls want domination because then they can 'log out' let the man direct it, and its a way for them to stave of full responsibility of fully developing and coming into themselves, a way to hide, women who are younger and insecure in themselves, pretty much all young women (and men) tend to be like this. Women like that aren't really attractive to me anymore because they just aren't fully 'there' to me. I want her mind to be there now. I remember one of the first times I had sex with a more autistic girl, I could just feel it was right and I did just outright ask her. And she was young, maybe 20 years old. I just asked 'do you want to be sexual?' and she thought about it, said some things, not necessarily no, and then just said "I'm going to lay down", in which I went over and did a typical male seductive act, kissing her, leading to sex. And it struck me that during sex she was really really 'there'. She would look me straight tin the eye, be very aware of everything, would even talk consciously and fully aware during sex. Whereas neurotypical girls i find they 'log out' in sex, their mind isn't there, they don't really want it to be, most neurotypical girls I've been with I find they actually WANT to drink alcohol before sex, to help them log out, if I had fully engaged their conscious mind it would of broken their sexual desire in the moment. These are how my first sexual encounters were, and until I experienced more 'conscious' sex with the autistic girl, I just didn't know any better. Now, a girl wanting to 'log out' in sex and not be there fully consciously and drink alcohol is very unattractive to me, and I have actually passed up sex with a lot of girls who I know like sex like that. Its just not as fulfilling i find. the autistic girl who was fully consciously there, she would orgasm super intensely from just sex, like nearly trantric black out orgasm intensity. Which changed me after experiencing that because a girl orgasming that intensely is what sex is really all about, and for a girl to do that, her mind must be fully engaged in it. Must must must be. The neurotypical girls I know who would 'log out' during sex or always liked to mix it with alcohol would never orgasm from penetration, it would take a lot of skilled oral sex, and even then, not always. For them sex was just a way to feel comfortable around a male, it wasn't something for them. Which when I was younger and wanting to experience sex and thats what was available and all I knew, was great for experimentation. But after more conscious sex, and being with more autistic girls, and seeing the full intensity of female orgasm that comes from her mind being fully conscious, fully intertwined with the experience, I could never be fully satisfied going back to the more neurotypical female unconscious sex of just wanting me to overtake them. And Ive begun to actually see it as REALLY f****d up that neurotypical girls want this type of sex, that they want unconscious sex. They give a way so much of their power with it, they don't realize how intense orgasm and sex can be by wanting the dominating not fully conscious sex, and its instinctually unattractive to me now.

But finding fully consciously aware neurotypical woman less than 28 years old I think is extreeeemely rare, I never found it. And also finding autistic girls who are into sex is also extremely rare. So finding a girl who really really wants fully conscious, fully intense, fully tantrically orgasmic intense sex, is really hard to come by. And if you wait and wait and hold out for it, you may be passing up a lot of needed sexual experience and development with less conscious, less mature neurotypical girls. Sexual identity and comfort must be developed through experience and a bit of fumbling and awkwardness. This is why people have multiple sex partners before finding the 'one' they need to experience sex in all forms before fully connecting their mind to it. Fully conscious sex is something that you must grow into I think, both men and women, by having a wide variety of sexual encounters of different types.

So to answer your question, from a male perspective, should you ask the girl? My thinking would go like this.

Is she neurotypical? Is she less than 28 years old? Are you not very sexually experienced yourself and needing experience? Does she want to go drink alcohol to socialize with you? No I would not ask then, you must intuitively feel your way into sexual connection with her through body language and nonverbal cues. You must be a little more forward and dominating. it is ALL about reading her body language and vibe and making her feel like your in control so she can 'relax' and 'log out', or rather 'let go' as I find a lot of neurotypical girls say.

On the flip side,
Is she more autistic? Is she older, or alteast a bit more experienced sexually? Are you a bit more experienced sexually and more conscious yourself sexually? Then yes I would ask. I would over ask everything. I would get her mind into it as much as possible. Because thats the route to really really really good sex. Its just harder to find.

So experiment and play with neurotpyical girls, younger girls, feeling your way through it. But always keep your eye open for the one who's mind is 'there' and immediately seek to start engaging her mind. A neurotypical girl wanting domination will return the guy who can dominate her and take away her need to feel fully conscious. Where as the more autistic and intelligent women they will return to who is 'there' with them mentally. Be aware though that until you are 'there' with a girl fully conscious, she probably isn't going to be a long term girlfriend or anything, its just going to be you two experimenting with each other and learning, then pissing each other off once your minds become more aware of yourselves and grow, you change, and need to find someone to teach you the next set of things you need to learn.

Holy Thesis Batman!

If you are confident they are attracted to you, just take the lead and initiate a kiss, but carefully and abandon it if they show any sign of not wanting it. If you are uncertain then ask. If you see no sign of them being attracted to you, don't kiss at all.