How should I take this feedback given to me by an NT?

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23andaspie
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20 Jan 2015, 2:30 am

Today I got into an argument with an NT, one whom I was briefly romantically involved with (only reason why this is put under this love and dating category). I'm going to omit a lot of the unnecessary details. But basically I'd like to know what you think about the following:

1) She says I use the AS "excuse" way too much in justifying why I am the way I am. I do believe some aspects of it can be overcome, but I do believe it is a lifelong condition, and early life experiences can affect it too. She mentioned a friend with bipolar who had never brought it up as an "excuse", and how she's never used her depression and anxiety as an excuse. I know how debilitating such conditions can be, but should I believe I really have the ability to control everything about myself?

2) I expect things to be planned too much; she believes life should be more relaxed. I plan out things with people, and in general I've found many NTs do as well. Do I just need to find a middle ground or something? What would that look like?

Any thoughts are much appreciated.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Jan 2015, 3:23 am

Yes.

A wise advice from an aging man (yes, I am aging): Never mention AS anymore in front of friends or anyone, and if you ever get new friends, don't ever mention it too, not even to your future gfs, just keep it as your little private secret to take it with you to your grave, seriously.
No matter how genuine your difficulties are and no matter the context, mentioning will always be seen as an excuse.
So when you are with any other human being, forget AS.

In fact, medically, the syndrome doesn't even officially exist anymore, and not just because the founders of the DSM wanted to jooin it to ASD but because the AS diagnosis itself had proved to be very inconsistent, vague, stupid and it can include any NT geek/introvert to mild real cases of autism. I've read somewhere that 70% of those who have been diagnosed as AS wouldn't pass the new diagnosis of autism in the new DSM, it became much stricter and for a good reason. The main reason of this move was the over-diagnosis and inconsistency of AS that went out of control.

It's time to ditch this label altogether, sorry Alex :lol:.


And seriously, you had four serious girlfriends, that's a record for WP males, so if you really had any real condition of autism then it is certainly ridiculously mild.



Echolalia
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20 Jan 2015, 3:40 am

Take it with a grain of salt. People in geneal are quick to point the finger like their stuff doesn't stink. Over time you will come to realise on your own which complaints are legitimate and which ones are projections.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Jan 2015, 4:07 am

Quote:
Bryna Siegel, a child psychiatrist at the University of California, San Francisco, was a member of the DSM IV working group. She says she “undiagnoses” Asperger’s far more frequently than she diagnoses it. For every 10 children who come to see her with a diagnosis of Asperger’s, she “undiagnoses” nine.

Siegel believes that one reason why Asperger’s has become so widely applied is the appealing meaninglessness of its name.

“I think part of the proliferation of the Asperger’s diagnosis is that if you say that a kid has oppositional defiant disorder, and especially if you say that about a normally intelligent upper-middle-class kid, parents don’t like to use the word 'oppositional' and they don’t like to use the word 'defiant' and they don’t like to use the word 'disorder.' And ‘Asperger’s’ just sounds so much more neutral. It doesn’t have any connotations … It’s a name, it’s not a descriptive term.”


Quote:
Peter Szatmari, another child psychiatrist who was part of the DSM IV effort, also believes Asperger’s has been stretched too far. “I remove the diagnosis about 50 percent of the time,” he says.

Szatmari does not bemoan the removal of the Asperger’s diagnosis from the DSM. He considers the lack of consensus among clinicians clear evidence for its failure.

In fact, he even struggles to clarify to his patients and their family members exactly what it is they’re dealing with.


Those are quotes from two members of the APA who took part in DSM IV, the DSM version that has declared AS as official - so these are elite professional psychiatrists, not graduates from some cheap college.

It's time to ditch this label, buddies.



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20 Jan 2015, 4:18 am

You should take it seriously and not take it seriously at the same time. You're both right. You need to grow as a person and not let labels hold you back and you need to learn from whatever mistakes s(he) is telling you about and slowly make efforts to leave your comfort zone. While they need to understand there are certain undertakings you might not be ready for and can't just jump into. I can see playing the AS card to not want to go to a massive party, or to even drive a car. But I can't see it being used as an excuse to stay home or not get a job. So it really does depend on how you use it.


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25 Jan 2015, 12:33 am

I sort of agree with Boo's advice of not mentioning AS. The overwhelming majority of people do not understand AS. They expect you to act normal. They don't understand that you are not normal. They get frustrated when you don't meet their expectations. Then they accuse you of "just being difficult" or "using AS as an excuse". The good news is that there are people who can accept you just the way you are. Stick with those people and accept the fact that many people are not going to understand no matter what you do.

Also, you can mention the symptoms without using the term "Aspergers". For example, you can say "I have trouble with eye contact, but I am listening." or "I have a hard time remembering things if they are not a part of my routine. Can you help me by ______" Even then, some people won't be understanding, but at least they won't be turned off by the use of the term "Aspergers".



GreatAlli
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25 Jan 2015, 1:53 am

You should completely disregard #2 as it's just a part of who you are. I will say that I think the answer to #1 is heavily dependent on the circumstances. Was it the sort of thing where somebody would ask "Why do you ____?" and you'd respond with "because I have AS"? Or was AS used when you were confronted with something somebody had a problem way in an "I can't help it" way and thereby trying to let yourself off the hook in terms of accountability?



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25 Jan 2015, 9:00 am

23andaspie wrote:
Today I got into an argument with an NT, one whom I was briefly romantically involved with (only reason why this is put under this love and dating category). I'm going to omit a lot of the unnecessary details. But basically I'd like to know what you think about the following:

1) She says I use the AS "excuse" way too much in justifying why I am the way I am. I do believe some aspects of it can be overcome, but I do believe it is a lifelong condition, and early life experiences can affect it too. She mentioned a friend with bipolar who had never brought it up as an "excuse", and how she's never used her depression and anxiety as an excuse. I know how debilitating such conditions can be, but should I believe I really have the ability to control everything about myself?

2) I expect things to be planned too much; she believes life should be more relaxed. I plan out things with people, and in general I've found many NTs do as well. Do I just need to find a middle ground or something? What would that look like?

Any thoughts are much appreciated.


1. Yes, you are indeed responsible for controlling yourself.

AS makes some things harder, so it's incumbent upon you to figure out another way to achieve [whatever caused you to react in a manner that was out of control].

For example, if you're prone to sensory meltdowns declining to spend three days at Burning Man (zillions of people, tons of noise, nowhere to escape to for peace & quiet) is probably a good idea. Ditto for pursuing a career as a professional dj.


2. How planned or unplanned you like your social to be is up to you. If you LIKE stuff to be super-planned, that's fine -- so do lots of others. Those are the folks you'll want to be friends with. There are 7 billion on this planet, a sufficient volume to virtually guarantee you'll find folks who "get" you. Why contort yourself into something you're not?

You don't even have to cut the folks who like a more "relaxed" approach out either -- you can simply agree to hang out with them at TIMES when the activity is more planned (eg buying tickets to a concert on Sept 15; plans for that night are unlikely to change) and demure on the not-so-planned ones.



vanille
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25 Jan 2015, 12:35 pm

I agree with KayteeKay, you can empower yourself by making choices that help you keep control of the situation.

I will answer from my own experience since I have borderline personality disorder. There are things that I find difficult and sometimes I have intense reactions to little things, but I try my best not to hurt other people and I accept the consequences of my actions. There is a difference between saying ''it is because I am BPD'' and ''sorry, I find X very difficult, but I understand that it makes you feel X and I'm doing X to work on it''.

I think that the same applies to my Aspie boyfriend. I am happy to know his diagnosis so I can support him and understand *why* he behaves a certain way, but it is never an excuse and sometimes he has to apologize if he does something rude (just like anyone else).



LillaA
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25 Jan 2015, 1:14 pm

I'd have to know you to know if #1 is right or not. I'm an NT, my boyfriend is AS; I have a very good friend who is NT and has a brother-in-law who is AS. The BIL uses AS as an excuse a LOT. He's the youngest kid, he's spoiled rotten, and anytime anything comes up, AS is his excuse to get his way. That's wrong. My boyfriend, on the other hand, doesn't use AS as an excuse unless it is legitimately a reason. For example, AS is a legitimate reason to prefer not to be the one who runs to Walmart cause we're out of milk. However, he doesn't use it as a crutch. If he can handle something, he will. Together, we try to make choices to make life easier for him so that he doesn't have to fight as hard as often (like I do the shopping most of the time), but he doesn't go around using AS as an excuse for anything that he can, only when needed. So, if you're like my boyfriend, then no, don't listen to your friend; if you're like my friend's BIL, then put on your big-boy (or big-girl) undies and start acting like an adult. Since I don't know you, I'll say, think about times when AS is an excuse for you and what you could do to not use that excuse, to determine whether it's a convenient way to avoid trouble or a serious need for accommodation. Don't let AS hold you back, but don't deny its existence.

I don't agree with never telling anyone about AS. There is a lot of negative stereotyping of AS, but the only way that will be fixed is if people start being more open and honest about it. One of the reasons my boyfriend and I are pretty open about him having AS is because we want people to realize that you can have AS and not be all the bad things people assume. So, I wouldn't tell everyone the first day I meet them, but I wouldn't feel the need to hide it either. Especially in the context of romantic relationships - openness and honesty is the best thing for relationships, so be open and honest. It will enable your girlfriends (if they're actually good people) to learn how to be the best partner they can to you, and enable you to feel comfortable being yourself around them.

Regarding her 2nd complaint, that's simply a personality and person-to-person thing, not something that's an AS issue. Again, without knowing you, I don't know if you're too uptight about your plans, but planning in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Ironically, my AS boyfriend is the one to take things as they come and be relaxed, and as an NT I'm the one in our relationship wanting to plan everything out. So, definitely not an AS thing. But, as a self-confessed planner, I do think that learning to be OK with things not going according to plan and trying to be somewhat spontaneous can be a good thing. Generally in between two extremes is the best place to be. So, maybe try to work on being more OK with spontaneity, but don't think that planning is something "wrong" with you, it's just a different approach to life.


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Evam
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08 Apr 2015, 1:17 am

I (NT) agree with "LillaA"

LillaA wrote:
I don't agree with never telling anyone about AS. There is a lot of negative stereotyping of AS, but the only way that will be fixed is if people start being more open and honest about it.

I also think it is good, to use AS as an excuse, if it is a good excuse in that situation.

As for the plan vs. relaxation issue: Someone with Asperger once talked about "flexibility within structure", and that some rituals in her daily and weekly arrangement gave her a lot of stability; she was then able to allow more change for the rest or also to handle it, if once in a while this structure could not be uphold. I would say that plans, and in particular detailed plans, make less sense than rituals. Rituals can be more easily adapted and depend less on others.

If you have a strong resistance to change, even for the change that just happens, it makes sense to work on the acceptance of change, and on trust. Relaxation techniques of all kind are good for reducing anxiety.

BTW, what makes you think that your ex-girlfriend is NT? Dating someone with Asperger, having depression and anxiety issues (!) corresponds to "being probably on the spectrum".

As for the quotes on people that frequently undiagnose people with AS: there is a lot of denial going on here. Many psychologist or psychiatrists are on the spectrum themselves, and dont want to be seen as "disordered".



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08 Apr 2015, 4:18 am

I only play the AS excuse if I absolutely have to. If I'm being forced into a situation I absolutely cannot do regardless (aka, be dragged to a club or a rave) I'm going to use the AS excuse. Or being asked to taste exotic food. That's it. Past that I try to avoid bringing it up at all costs.


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08 Apr 2015, 4:37 am

Officially, Asperger Syndrome DOESN'T exist anymore.

It was a fade that made no sense, now we just have real diagnosed autistics, and real simply introvert/geek NTs.



Evam
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08 Apr 2015, 5:21 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Officially, Asperger Syndrome DOESN'T exist anymore.

It was a fade that made no sense, now we just have real diagnosed autistics, and real simply introvert/geek NTs.

Just that some of those you consider as "geek NTs" consider themselves as being closer to the "real diagnosed autistics" than to typical NTs, and have serious issues with fitting in and with anxieties ... I think that those who are more recognizably on the autism spectrum have often less or less existential problems compared to people with so-called "milder" forms, and that those who have more like the phenotype of it might represent the biggest source of suffering for other people.

It makes sense that with many or all psychiatric conditions, suffering is THE relevant factor, and even if you dont suffer or make suffer at all, it is good to recognize oneself as what one is. I mean we all have our "nature" which makes us similar to one group of people more than to another, and we all have our "individuality" which singles us out even in this group. Nature and individuality, both together make our identity or personality.



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08 Apr 2015, 5:31 am

Evam wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Officially, Asperger Syndrome DOESN'T exist anymore.

It was a fade that made no sense, now we just have real diagnosed autistics, and real simply introvert/geek NTs.

Just that some of those you consider as "geek NTs" consider themselves as being closer to the "real diagnosed autistics" than to typical NTs, and have serious issues with fitting in and with anxieties ... I think that those who are more recognizably on the autism spectrum have often less or less existential problems compared to people with so-called "milder" forms, and that those who have more like the phenotype of it might represent the biggest source of suffering for other people.

It makes sense that with many or all psychiatric conditions, suffering is THE relevant factor, and even if you dont suffer or make suffer at all, it is good to recognize oneself as what one is. I mean we all have our "nature" which makes us similar to one group of people more than to another, and we all have our "individuality" which singles us out even in this group. Nature and individuality, both together make our identity or personality.



Yeah, I am not denying the Introverts/geeks' struggles in life, but if you want to include them under AS then you can no longer define it as a 'mild form of autism'.



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08 Apr 2015, 5:44 am

LillaA wrote:
I'd have to know you to know if #1 is right or not. I'm an NT, my boyfriend is AS; I have a very good friend who is NT and has a brother-in-law who is AS. The BIL uses AS as an excuse a LOT. He's the youngest kid, he's spoiled rotten, and anytime anything comes up, AS is his excuse to get his way. That's wrong. My boyfriend, on the other hand, doesn't use AS as an excuse unless it is legitimately a reason. For example, AS is a legitimate reason to prefer not to be the one who runs to Walmart cause we're out of milk. However, he doesn't use it as a crutch. If he can handle something, he will. Together, we try to make choices to make life easier for him so that he doesn't have to fight as hard as often (like I do the shopping most of the time), but he doesn't go around using AS as an excuse for anything that he can, only when needed. So, if you're like my boyfriend, then no, don't listen to your friend; if you're like my friend's BIL, then put on your big-boy (or big-girl) undies and start acting like an adult. Since I don't know you, I'll say, think about times when AS is an excuse for you and what you could do to not use that excuse, to determine whether it's a convenient way to avoid trouble or a serious need for accommodation. Don't let AS hold you back, but don't deny its existence.

I don't agree with never telling anyone about AS. There is a lot of negative stereotyping of AS, but the only way that will be fixed is if people start being more open and honest about it. One of the reasons my boyfriend and I are pretty open about him having AS is because we want people to realize that you can have AS and not be all the bad things people assume. So, I wouldn't tell everyone the first day I meet them, but I wouldn't feel the need to hide it either. Especially in the context of romantic relationships - openness and honesty is the best thing for relationships, so be open and honest. It will enable your girlfriends (if they're actually good people) to learn how to be the best partner they can to you, and enable you to feel comfortable being yourself around them.

Regarding her 2nd complaint, that's simply a personality and person-to-person thing, not something that's an AS issue. Again, without knowing you, I don't know if you're too uptight about your plans, but planning in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Ironically, my AS boyfriend is the one to take things as they come and be relaxed, and as an NT I'm the one in our relationship wanting to plan everything out. So, definitely not an AS thing. But, as a self-confessed planner, I do think that learning to be OK with things not going according to plan and trying to be somewhat spontaneous can be a good thing. Generally in between two extremes is the best place to be. So, maybe try to work on being more OK with spontaneity, but don't think that planning is something "wrong" with you, it's just a different approach to life.


This. This is correct. I'm an Aspie in a relationship with an NT, and I can tell you that we operate very much like this person with their relationship. My ASD doesn't come up a lot, but, for example, if there's a need to call a company on the phone for services, my partner usually does it because that is especially difficult for me. Or, there are certain TV shows whose theme music is unusually loud for me even though my partner says they are no louder then the rest of the show, so he lets me mute the TV when those come on. Or he might need to remind me that it is socially appropriate to return someone's text. Little adjustments. The biggest one is that when we have an argument, I get really, really tongue-tied. My ability to speak almost totally shuts down so that it will take 5-10, sometimes 20-30, seconds to get each word out.
So, always disclose to a significant other (if it truly is significant), but most other people probably have no reason to know.
ASD is a lifelong condition, but we live in an NT world, and so we have an obligation to learn how to operate within it. This doesn't mean pretending to be normal, but it does mean that as time goes on we learn techniques that help us interact better. Theoretically, the older you get, the less ASD should ever need to come up. ASD is not an excuse to be an @sshole (though I'm not suggesting you are one). To those who would use ASD as a crutch: you live in this world, like it or not. Learn how. It is not going to bend for you, nor should it. We don't reroute the river on the whims of one stone.
As far as rigidity, if it is becoming a problem, you can work to change it. If it isn't bothering anyone, then don't worry about it. I like schedules and plans. I don't like visiting friends when they aren't expecting me (or them visiting me). My friends know this, and they accept it. It doesn't bother anyone. But if it is a problem, keep in mind that the world isn't going to burn down if your plans get changed. The best way to become more flexible is to tolerate growing amounts of flexibility. Make a plan to go a movie, but don't plan what movie you will see (or whatever is on the edge of tolerable for you). Notice I said tolerable, not comfortable. If it makes you anxious but you can stand it, that's good. If you can't stand it, you overreached and need to try something smaller. Once you've had a few unplanned events go well, you will start to learn that it is ok not to plan everything. This is something I've had to deal with myself. I can be very rigid in my need to plan things out, which is why I purposely force myself out of this habit from time to time.


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