Am I naive?

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I've never been in a relationship or even really been friends with a girl/woman. I have conversations with women sometimes, but beyond that, nothing much. So now you know my experience level.

I come from a background of very low class, some mental health issues, obesity and minority. So basically the bottom of the barrel when it comes to attraction. So in my life the only direction after being in the bottom is up.

What women generally find attractive:

* Social Skills - Charisma, Confidence, Body Language, Sense of Humor, Fun
* Sense of Security - Wealth, Bigger than they are, Education, Social Status, Power
* Health - Lower bodyfat (12%-16%), Fit, Eats well
* Ambition - Determination in achieving goals, Intelligent, Critical Thinker

Something else I've noticed, most women never date someone they perceive is less than them in any of these things unless they make up for it somewhere else. I almost never see fit women date obese men. I almost never see middle or upper class women date lower class men. I almost never see ambitious women date men with low ambition. I almost never see women date someone who won't make them laugh or at least makes them feel good.

I'm 26 years old now and I've improved my life vastly over the last few years. I'm getting close to checking off the health box (Lost 120 lbs lost, lift weights, cycle, etc). My ambition has sky rocketed and is pushing me out of poverty (Going to college, transferring next semester majoring in Computer Science). I plan to make plenty of money when I graduate, although I still am very poor monetarily since I'm independent (support myself) and go to school. No car yet, and no real home to go to, and living with roommates.

My mental health has vastly improved. I used to be at the point of almost committing suicide, but now I feel decent on most days. I still feel bad on some days, but for the most part I can say I feel better. I used to be afraid of going outside due to shame of past failures, but I've moved past that. I'd say there is still work to be done here.

My social skills are still very lacking and can't see them improving much. I've tried, but maybe it's my environment. I'm hoping once I transfer my dedication to this will help me improve since I plan on joining clubs and forcing myself to attend social events.

Am I naive in believing that once I achieve a certain level of these things the percentage of women that find me attractive will increase, thereby increasing the chance that someone that I really like will also like me back? I'm not doing this solely for the purpose of finding a partner since I also want to achieve plenty of other things, but I see these goals as the minimum requirements before I don't feel like I'm unattractive and start to feel happy about myself, which will then help me find a partner to share my life with.

I'm essentially using these as guiding principles that will hopefully propel me into success, whatever that means to me (I don't truly know yet honestly).

Most of the girls/women I've met at school come from middle to middle-upper class backgrounds and haven't really ever shown any interest (that I know of) in me due to the things I've mentioned. Why would they pick me when they have much better options? Being a CS major also puts me around 99% men and then top it off with lack of social aspects of community college life.

Honestly my standards aren't high.

* Be healthy - Not obese, active, eats well
* Passionate - Working towards becoming a better version of herself and growing
* Attracted to me

Rest can be left to getting to know each other.

Am I in the ball park here? Am I unrealistic for myself?

First, kudos on making those changes.

It depends on how you look at it. I don't know if there is a 'what women generally find attractive', except so far as we see statistical norms/correlations. Men who are unemployed or poor or obese or unintelligent or unkind - they too get into relationships.

I think, by and large, 'mainstream' people (men and women) want someone with what I think of as the 'basic adult competencies' (a job, a car, a place to live, able to look after themselves), and they want someone with a similar worldview and lifestyle as their own, someone who meets the standards they hold themselves to. They are, by and large, looking for a steady partner. I think it's reasonable, and makes sense, to expect a match of lifestyle and worldview. There's a lot of people who have no interest in the 'mainstream'. Subcultures abound.

A consumerist, wealth-loving, nails-and-tan kind of woman is unlikely to want the punk rocker with his piercings and mohican. And that punk rocker is unlikely to be interested in the consumerist, wealth-loving, nails-and-tan woman. Sometimes it's about like attracting like, sometimes it's about differences that complement each other.

It's complicated, is what I'm saying. Who knew, eh?

I think as you move closer to the common signals/markers of 'attractive', perhaps better put as 'a good catch', I'd be surprised if more women didn't find you so. That's why those markers exist. If you will find them attractive - that's another matter.

Apropos attraction:

I'm a man of no wealth, no car, minimal (if any) prospects, average looking tending to overweight. Yet some women have found me attractive. And while they've had nice things to say about my eyes or my smile of my humour, I don't think that was it.

Here's my experience: when I find someone attractive, that's it. It becomes the lens through which I see them. Quite what it is that made them attractive, I don't know. There's just a 'click', and it's there. I can only say it's them. But I find something(s) to hang my attraction on. Their eyes, their keen wit, their passion, their smile, a certain gesture they have, etc. But my attraction does not depend on any of those things; it just is. It's the je ne sais quoi aspect.

I think that's how attraction works, or at least one kind. I can draw up a list of qualities I'd desire in a woman, and there can be someone who possesses those qualities, and though I'll find her hugely appealing and a great fine/catch, still I may not find her 'attractive' in the 'just because' sense.

Thank you for the reply. In the case where you said unemployed, obese, or poor men being in relationships I agree. The women they are in relationships with have similar characteristics. For example a poor man, working full time that is obese is likely to be in a relationship with a wife that is also obese and within that same socioeconomic class and ethnicity. She isn't exactly dating down, she's dating someone within her socioeconomic class. For example, you wouldn't see her dating someone that is living in their car, working part time trying to find a full time job. In fact I've read stories of men getting in to those situations and their lives falling apart because their wife leaves them.

I've seen some women date a lower socioeconomic class, but really only in college and only if the guy was really physically attractive and was charming. I've never heard of a college educated woman seriously dating a guy working part time at Starbucks or something.

This is true and why I might be struggling. Let me give you a picture of my situation. The city where I live there's a west side by the coast and an east side separated by a highway. The west side is definitely low socioeconomic class and is where I spent my pre-teen and teenage, up to adulthood. I grew up right there around people that for the most part were just as poor as I was. I was obese though and had very severe social anxiety/depression at the time, so I barely had friends. Clearly this makes me an outcast and not someone desirable to be with. I also spent lots of time reading and playing video games at this time. I did not have a similar world view and lifestyle to the vast majority of people around me.

It took a long time but eventually I got to where I am now and the school I go to is on the east side. Middle class to middle-upper class. Not obese, much less SA, much less depression, etc. People This area is full of suburbs (like the tv show weed intro) and the average person fills that consumerist caricature that you described. So when it comes to lifestyle and world view, mine definitely does not match up with the vast majority of people here. For the most part people here want things. Nice house in the suburbs, nice flashy car, and kids. I do not want those things and even if I did I could not provide them at the moment since I don't even have a car right now and don't have the money since I spend most of it on education and survival. I think I just grew up in the wrong place and definitely do not fit in where I live.

I'm transferring out the community college here around June and going to be attending university at more of a small town setting to get away from suburbia. I'm thinking Chico or Davis are my top 2 picks. I wanted Humboldt at first since it's perfect, but their CS program is very subpar.

Maybe the women that will find me attractive are just somewhere else and I need to move there, or will it be the same everywhere? You mentioned subcultures and I think that might be my best bet. Which is why I think Chico or Davis will be the best bet.

Some of my life goals are to bike tour across the U.S. and Europe. I want to go through every single state and visit different places. I want to grow an epic beard as well. Would I have to do these things alone or is it possible to find someone into things like this that also finds me attractive? I also want to increase my wealth since it is a great resource to accomplish many things, but I don't want to waste it on flashy things. My goals are to graduate with my B.S. in CS and use that along with all of my skills and internships to find a job to catapult myself out of the lower class. Use that money to invest and increase it enough to where I can help myself, help my family and start an org to help others as well. Sorry /end ramble.

I think the more you get comfortable with yourself, the more attractive you will be to women regardless of external stuff like physical fitness and economic success. My attractiveness level has gone up a lot over the past few years. Part of it, I have to admit, is because I have improved a lot with my social skills. But there is something I have now that I didn't have before and that is self-acceptance. I honestly don't care if a woman likes me not. If the women I like doesn't like me back, then I know someone else will come along. When I was younger, I was always anxious--wondering whether or not I was attractive. This anxiety tripped me up every time.

One thing you mentioned does seem to be a stumbling block to finding a partner. That is not being around like-minded people. I had the same trouble. I grew up in an area where I did not fit in. There was no way I was going to find a partner living there. When I moved to a different area, where more people like me lived, my opportunities for dating improved exponentially. I hope you find people on your wavelength when you move to go to college.

As a former naïve Aspie who was kissless until almost 30, let me first say there is NO formula for attracting women. My girl loves my quirks but others probably think of them as creepy. Either way I didn't want to attract that type anyway. What I can say with confidence is that women in general L-O-V-E assertive, passionate men. The kind who are dominant but not abusive. For example, instead of asking for a kiss I will grab (Fiancee) and passionately lay one on her and she will become instantly more attracted to me. Of course, I try not to say this to someone naïve or inexperienced because they might take this to mean being violent or assaultive as they are absolutely NOTHING alike. Aspies like myself tend to struggle in this area with our black and white thinking but I would work on being more assertive above anything else.

For example, women generally don't care if don't have a car, good looks, money etc as long as you own who you are. As a mentioned in another thread when talking about my past I see many mistakes and would probably do things differently in hindsight but I will NEVER apologize for being who I was at the time and making what I thought was the right decision.

What does it mean to have self acceptance? I know you mean to say you should not care whether a woman is attracted to you, but I doubt that's all there is to it. Do you stop trying to dress up? There are certain social expectations and if you don't conform to those expectations you'll be treated as an outcast. Not only that if you want to be friends with someone you have to care about them, so if you want a woman friend you have to care about her in a certain way. It's pretty confusing to be honest.

When you moved to your new area, how did you know that was a better area to live in and find like minded people?

How did you build up to grabbing someone like that? How did decide that was the best course of action? I'm asking because I can honestly say I'm kind of scared of touching other people because of the possible repercussions. My biggest fear would be if she didn't like my approach to touching her in a certain way, gets completely put off and decides to call me a creep. How do you know when it's okay or not? I would much prefer she grabs my hands or explicitly tells me that it's okay. Where do you draw that line? Man, this sounds kind of sad but I honestly do not know. As for me I've never really been shown any kind of affection growing up or even now, so I don't know how to approach these things.

I'm getting confused because I've never seen a homeless man marry a woman that comes from a middle class household while he was still homeless? Do you mean when women don't care about money, they don't care, as long as you have enough to a certain point?

I mean I've read constantly a car being a deal breaker for women all the time. Here in SD, where everyone has a car basically, it's essentially a minimum requirement otherwise it's a no go. Unless you live in college dorms and are a college student.

I tried editing the previous post to quote and add it in, but I kept on getting a page to confirm I wasn't a robot over and over and it wouldn't let me edit, so I'm just double quoting.

Practice, practice, practice! I can assure you I was far more clueless than you. I will point to a supposed failure as a great example of what I mean: I once knew a date was ready to be kissed because a)came back to my apartment and b)she rapidly starting looking at her lips. I got that right but when I went to hold her hand a few dates later she gently brushed it away. I would suggest getting closer and closer and see if she backs away. If she leans away, red light. If she stays put, yellow light. If she leans in, green light. Just take it slow and if you screw up, don't worry about it.

I remember my Fiancee was 'uncomfortable' when I asked her if she was ready to go all the way because I wasn't sure if she was due to her religious beliefs. Turns out she just wanted me to take command and just do it and she would have spoken up if I went too far. Still, I cannot emphasize enough it's better to be safe than to be inappropriate. I can't post any more since this is not the adult forum and I respect her wish for privacy but let's just say you would never suspect it from looking at us.


I can't comment on that specifically but I know a woman who is with a total loser who can't hold down a job. Why? Heck if I know but it was probably because this guy was confident and dominant. I was more referring to how women don't care if you are rich, just as long as you are an adult who takes care of their own affairs. Nobody wants a child as a spouse!


It's a deal breaker to me only because I had an ex who did not drive and lived 40 minutes away. Guess who got to do all the driving??? I wouldn't care so much if she was carless and long as she lived close, respected that I am not a taxi and at least had a license or was planning to get one. Luckily that is not an issue because she has her own car too. I have recently met plenty of carless people in my city (both men and women) and they have no problems getting married.

I guess I need to get to the point where I can recognize attraction before I practice. Which I have no clue about as well. No one's ever said they like me before. I know these things don't just happen on their own, even though most people say they do. There's certain things that a man must do in situations like this to be even considered, so I need to discover what those things are.



If he's jobless how does he survive? Does he have his family helping him? I'm sure there's someway he gets money.

Ah, well I can understand. You don't have to be rich, you just need to have a career and a car. Otherwise your dating pool decreases dramatically correct? I'm sure the carless people had other things going for them, such as they lived close to work and used uber to transport themselves. I think my issue is that I'm too poor to even date and shouldn't even be worrying about that until I can acquire enough money to not be poor. I don't have any sort of safety net, it's literally just me. There's no way in my situation that anyone would consider wanting to be with me at the present moment. I barely make enough to pay for rent, tuition and food until I can get financial aid when I transfer.

Having self-acceptance means that I know and accept my weaknesses. I also know my strengths. I kind of have the attitude that some people are going to like me and others aren't. I can't really do anything about it. I feel comfortable being myself. That doesn't mean I don't try to be polite. I make an effort to be social acceptable, but I don't try really hard to impress people or get obsessed about fixing the things that are wrong with me. I feel like I am basically a good person, so most people I meet will like me.

When I moved, I moved AWAY from the place where I am from. I moved to escape the constant isolation that I felt. I didn't know for certain that I would meet people I liked, but I did. I felt comfortable for the first time in my life. I think urban areas tend to have more people who are tolerant of difference. There's also a lot more non-conformists. Whatever subculture you're in, you're more likely to find people like you in a big city.