Dating couches & pickup artists helpfull or not?

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Has anybody had any luck with these as allot of them appear very expensive. Some run courses and boot camps which can cost about 4K. Not sure if it works for us or if they work at all. May be some do and others don't, not sure. Also has anybody had a positive experience with any self help books on this topic which are allot cheaper?

1-on-1 coaches might be helpful, but pickup artists are not.
the latter is purely aimed at grabbing a girl from a bar for a single night of fun, and makes extensive use of manipulation and plays of microexpressions from the other person (the girl), and they assume that the user has great social skills already, it is for people that have no problem with walking up to a person and talking to them, but wish to know how to "seal the deal", for tonight only

Another example of Snake Oil Sales Pitches.

Lol, I clicked on this thread because it says "dating couches" and I was really curious as to what that would look like.

Getting a dating couch sounds awfully optimistic!

Dating coaches: Yes
PUAs: Avoid like the plague

Dating coaches: Maybe
Dating couches: No
Pickup artists: No

Anyways, here's some free advice, so take it for what it's worth.

Some Main Reasons why I have turned guys down in the past:

1) They tried too hard, acted pushy, desperate, whiny, or were stalkers.
2) They didn't care who I was as a person, showed no respect.

I was #1, except for the stalking, in my early 20's.

I was in the seduction community heavily for 2-3 years. Never paid for bootcamps, just studied online and found a wingman to practice. The techniques work. Anyone who says they don't hasn't put in the time. Even simple stuff like the 3 second rule, or the angle from which you approach matter tremendously. As do logistics and having a wingman and knowing how to give the girl plausible deniability so she feels like she's not a slut.

Female attraction switches can be flipped. Drawbacks:

- insanely long hours spent drinking (I don't like drinking), partying (I don't like partying) and dancing (I don't like dancing)
- insanely long hours walking for day game (I like walking for max 30 mins, not a total of 10 km up and down a mall)
- you obtain attraction by wearing a mask; and an unnatural, tiresome, unpleasant one at that.

I recommend it for someone who wants to understand female psychology and gain a little bit of experience and build their confidence that if it's ever a matter of life or death, they could go into a club and bring home a drunk bimbo. However it's not my cup of tea. I have since met (very few) women of worth, with a brain, some mission in life, and even some similarity to myself - and who don't require me to act like a ret*d, so I will never stoop down to those levels again.

I dabbled in some of the "PUA" and "dating coach" ebooks in the past, but never bothered to pay for a boot camp (the one I read the most of was Carlos Xuma, who I perceive as well-intentioned but misguided).

I could go into detail but my overall opinion is this:

*Beyond a few grains of truth (such as evolutionary psychology, or "dominant" behavioral styles tending to attract women), most of it is just fluff rather than substance. This is because if authors just cut through the BS and simply present the cold-hard truth, then there's nothing left to write about (this is the case in many industries, such as the bodybuilding magazines and supplement industries as well - if anyone's interested in fitness there's an author called Nelson Montana who I'd recommend, as his logic could be applied to industries like PUA).

*As a general rule, if a person seems like they're "trying too hard" or using some kind of unnatural "system" it won't work - it'll make them seem more like a sleazy car salesman or televangelist with dubious intentions. The times I was most successful with women were when I was thinking less about the "rules" and simply acting natural and living in the moment. While it "might" work on the most gullible it still isn't worth it.

*One of the main problems with it is that it presents a superfluous, pedantic system full of all kinds of "rules" and rituals which just do more to encourage an obsessive-compulsive mindset and are the last thing someone with AS needs. (In fact it wouldn't suprise me if a lot of the PUAs and their followers have Asperger tendencies). If anything people should do the opposite, learn to be more relaxed, positive, and mindful (such as through meditation).

*Likewise it presents a mentality that if one simply follows a ritualistic "system" then it should work every time and let them get "any woman they want", but in reality humans don't work that way (the field of chaos theory for example overrides it, as it covers systems in nature which aren't completely predictable, and human behavior would fall into this category). For that matter, serious social scientists in any field (such as economics) don't claim to be able to predict how humans will react 100% of the time without exception.

The only individual I would recommend at this time is Aaron Sleazy and his ebooks (he doesn't identify with the seduction community, for the record). He has some free ebooks available on his website, and more or less cuts through all of the PUA BS and explains what's true and what doesn't work - check him out.

If I were to sum up Aaron Sleazy's take on the PUA industry, it's basically this:

1. PUAs are just average guys who seem to be "Don Juans" but it's really just because they spend countless hours each week trolling bars and clubs, and little to nothing to do with the "system" they're hocking - the system is more of just a placebo than anything else; it essentially focuses on the "1% which doesn't matter" and ignores the "99% which matters".

2. Beyond the bare basics, such as having a purposeful and structured life, and a few social hobbies where one can naturally meet women without "trying" so hard are the best way to do it; planning your entire life around "picking up chicks" isn't worth it, and likewise completely devaluates your purposes and ambitions if they aren't somehow related to "sex" or "women".

3. Any severe social issues that make basic social functioning too difficult to handle need legitimate therapy.

If a dating coach is anything like this it'll only help you get laid instead of helping you get a quality woman