A woman at the church

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As a background, I alternate between four different churches and oftentimes I don't go anywhere at all since I am behind at school. So these two factors combined together to result in my not being very regular in any one of the churches I go to. When I do come, some people recognize me, while others ask me if I am there the first time. In any given church, I tend to skip it for a few months, then go there two or three weeks in a row, and then again skip it for another few months.

In any case, during one of my sporadic visits, I noticed that there was a woman at the front that kept turning around. I was few rows behind her, but there weren't that many people between us, so I kept thinking that she was staring at me because I looked suspicious due to my Asperger. Then, after the service, when I got out of church, she was talking to a couple of friends, and I actually asked her whether she looked at me because I looked suspicious.

When I came the next sabbath, a certain older lady was talking to me during lunch after the service. She was talking about her own life but then, 10 minutes into the conversation, that younger woman who I thought was staring at me, started talking to her, so I went all quiet since she acted as if I wasn't even there. Then after she stepped aside, that older woman told me that actually she was that friend of hers whom she was looking back when I thought she was staring at me.

Now, at some point during the conversation with the older lady I mentioned that I have trouble dating. So she suggested to me that this woman who was staring is a good match for me. Even though I was the one who brought up the issue of women not dating me, I surely haven't brought up the idea that me and that specific woman might be a possibility, that idea entirely belonged to that older lady -- although I have no idea whether the younger lady was the one who suggested it.

In any case, there were many tables, so the younger lady was going back and forth between our table and someone else's table. So the older lady mentioned the possibility of my dating the younger lady at the time when she was at one of the other tables. But then again, my voice is pretty loud, so its possible that the younger lady heard my responses even though she haven't heard the older lady talking. BUt I am just guessing cause she didn't say anything that indicated one way or the other.

Anyway, when the younger lady stepped aside the first time, the older lady brought up the idea of me and her dating and I said that it sounds great. Then I stepped aside to get a coffee, then the older lady talked to the younger lady, then after I came back the older lady said that the younger lady was thinking I didn't like her, since I was concerned about her staring at me. I then reassured her that I am no longer concerned about it, since she already explained to me that she was waiting for her friend and I believed her. She said that thats what she told her and as long as thats the case its fine.

Then that younger woman again joined us and I talked to the two of them for a bit. No, they didn't talk about dating but the older woman suggested that the two of us go to a dance party, which we both agreed. Also during the conversation it turned out that we both like running, and the younger woman invited me to a running event that was going to happen. She said that they meet to compete every month or every other month and said that I am welcome to come to their events -- although this time it was not going to be a competition, it was going to be just a run for enjoyment. In connection to that event, she gave me her phone number so that I can get ahold of her before then.

There was also one more thing that she was going to -- before that running event -- but I wasn't invited there since it is between her friends who don't know me. Now, I texted her asking her how is she doing and, immediately after I sent her that text, I realize that she was at that party. So I am not sure if that was a mistake that I texted her at the party or not. I mean it is common for people to check text messages while they are at the social events but at the same time I don't know whether she personally likes to do it. So I am concerned that maybe I came across as inconsiderate. The reason I had those thoughts is that her responses sounded quite cold. But then again, it is also possible that the reason they were cold is that she didn't like me and it was the older lady who tried to force me on her, thats also possible. But then again, the older lady is her friend, not mine, so she won't be forcing me on her if she totally dislikes me. Thats why I am wondering whether it was me texting her at the time of the party that turned her off.

But, in any case, few days later there was that running event that she invited me to. Two hours before that event I texted her that I was coming and she replied with the directions. I was rather concerned that she didn't say anything "besides" giving the directions, nor have I heard from her during the few day interval between that party and that running event.

In any case, the uber driver couldn't follow those directions too well, so he took me to a rough location of that event but not exactly. Basically there was a huge lake. That running event was going to start at one end of a lake and he took me to the other end of a lake. This would have been fine and well if the battery of my phone wasn't dead, since then I would have texted her asking her what side of the lake to come to. But, unfortunately, the battery died at that exact moment. So, up till I was there, I had enough battery to get an uber and come there, but then once I was there the battery was at 1% and then it died in the middle of my typing her the quesiton of where to go. Now, there was an office at one of the sides of that lake and that office had a place to plug in my phone. But it took a while to get there and find the place where to plug it in. When I finally plugged it in, I texted her and she told me where to go and I came.

In any case, when I came, I had to put my name on the list of people who runs. Like I said, it was not a competition, but they still wanted us to put our names so that -- after the run -- they were to give "everyone" presents. Now, because of the above thing with the phone, I was worried I would be late so I was in a hurry to put my name before they start running. But -- right before I were going to put my name -- that younger woman greeted me (and no, the older woman wasn't coming to that event only that younger woman did). And that is my next mistake. I should have responded to her greeting me. But -- instead of responding to her -- I went to that sheet to put my name. You see -- despite the fact htat it *seemed like* she was cold over the phone -- it looked like she was quite warm in the way she greeted me. She smiled for sure and I don't remember whether she offered a hug or a hand shake, it was two years ago, but whatever it was, I didn't reciprocate it.

A second later I realized that I "should have" reciprocated it. I mean, since it was not a competition, nothing wrong would have happened if I was a second later. And, besides, people weren't starting running at that very moment anyway and since I was very close to the sign up sheet I would have been able to put my name just fine after greeting her. But it took me a few seconds to realize this. So, before I had these few seconds, I already ignored her greetings. Then, after I put my name on this sign up sheet, she seemed a bit colder than she was when she first greeted me. For one thing, she started talking to some other people there instead of talking to me.

Then, probably a minute later, we started to run. So then I was hoping to talk to her while I run. But I didn't remember how she looked like, so I asked some other woman if she is her, and she said she wasn't, but she pointed me to her. Since she heard this, she tried to make a small talk with me, but it wasn't much. What she said was that she was sick not that long ago so if she runs too fast she would blame it on me -- but I took it to be a joke. However, I didn't hear the exact words that she said, so I asked her to repeat a few times. Then she also mentioned that she has a friend who runs a lot faster and that I could try and run with her some day. Once again, even though I heard most of what she said I didn't hear the exact words so I asked her to repeat it a few times. Then I noticed that she was trying to end the conversation but I felt desperate to continue it, so I asked her a few questions about certain other competitions and what is her time there and what is her friends time there. She gave me short answers and didn't ask any follow up questions, which makes it sound like she was trying to avoid talking (she did tell me their times though, which implied that she herself is a lot slower than me while her friend is comparable to me).

Then finally she said that I am faster than her so I should just run at my own pace. But remember this wasn't competition so I dind't mind at all slowing down so that I could talk to her. Thats why it feels like the reason she told me to run at my own pace is that she dind't like me and didn't want to talk to me. Now, given that she greeted me in a friendly way, it seems like the reason she didn't like me is because I didn't greet her back.

The other possibility I am thinking of is maybe I came across as arrogant while asking about running pace. I remember an incident when in my Bible studies there was a woman who said he was studying Russian at some point and I started talking to her in Russian to see how much she would understand and then the person who led the Bible study later told me that when I "test" people's konwledge of Russian it comes across as if I look down at them for the fact that they don't know it as well as I do. But thats not my intention at all: my goal is quite the opposite, to be impressed by how well they know it. So could it be that when I ask people about how fast they run I make the same sort of mistake? I am asking about running as a genuine interest, but others think I am doing it in order to look down at them whenever I tell them I run faster?

But in any case, I did *not* ask that particular woman about Russian (that was just an analogy I just thought of at the moment). The only thing I *did* ask her was about running time. And I don't see why that is inappropriate, given the fact that we talked before about the competitions. So I am leaning to thinking that it must have been the fact that I dind't greet her and/or something earlier.

In any case, I went ahead and ran faster than her. Then, on my way back, I saw her still running forward, and she told me "keep going you already beat me" as if she was trying to discourage me from joining her again. Then I came back before she did. When she finally came back she was talking to some other people and totally ignoring me. The people were hanging around there for another half an hour if not an hour. They also distributted prizes -- and since it wasn't a competition, everyone got prizes, including me. At some point I found a moment when she wasn't talking to others and I quietly asked her whether I put her off and whether it was because I didn't greet her (I think I briefly told her about the time when I had to put my name instead of greeting her -- but I am not that positive that I did, maybe I didn't, who knows). In any case her answer to this is that no I dind't put her off, she is just trying to talk to everyone.

Now, my next question -- which I didn't verbalize -- was going to be "why would I be on the same level as everyone else if I thought our purpose was to see whether or not we can date? Does it mean you decided that I am a bad match, and if so, why?" But you see, it was the older lady who talked to me about the possibility of dating her, not her -- and she wasn't at the table when the older lady brought it up. So for that reason, I couldn't ask her about dating, so I never verbalized that question.

In any case, after the above exchange she tried to talk to me, apparently in order to make me feel better. Since her talking to me felt like a consolation prize, I decided to cut it off at some point. But at the same time I didn't want for it to be too blunt since I was still hoping to grasp at some straws. So what I did was that I called an uber, and the moment the uber came, I purposely went in there a lot more abruptly than I would have otherwise. Yes I did tell her that its uber, but I didn't give a proper goodbye. It was more like in the middle of a sentense I said "okay here is my uber" and just jumped in and shut the door behind myself.

Then, while I was taking the uber ride, I once again sent her a text message asking her whether I put her off, and she gave me similar answer. I then told her that I have Asperger Syndrome and was going on about my social difficulties. She said she understands and taht she also experienced a lot of problems herself -- she told me she was homeless at some point (which I wouldn't have known: she is White and she looks like someone who comes from a polite society, not ghetto at all -- but then again I have no idea how long ago this was).

But then at the end of the answer she said that she hoped I still enjoyed the event. I told her I enjoyed it but then I went on to say that the part that I especially liked is when they were giving me a prize, because they spelled out my first name but only pronounced the first letter of my last name. Now, my own last name has 8 letters (which I won't share for privacy reasons) but a certain girl that used to bully me back in the 7-th grade in Russia had last name that consisted of only 3 letters, which was EZZ -- so it sounds like a single letter S. Now my own last name starts from S, so when they pronounced letter S in place of my last name it sounded like they equated me with her and I took pride in it since it felt like I am a lot stronger than I used to be so even though back then she used to be stronger than me, maybe right now my strength matches hers. All of this was an answer to her question "I hope you still enjoyed the event".

She responded to this by saying that she was bullied as well when she was little and she said she hopes I am not bullied any more. I said of course I am not bullied any more because kids get bullied and adults get ostracized so now my problem is that I get ostracized and I went on to talk about this. I also asked her why she was bullied. She never answered.

Now, before I met her in that running event, the older lady set up a text-chat for the three of us. No, thats not the one I was using in the above text correspondence; in the above text correspondence I was messaging "just" the younger lady, so the older lady didn't see it. But then the younger lady sent a message to the chat with all three of us thanking the older lady but I felt like she purposely left me out. Becuase instead of thanking the two of us, she named that older lady by name.

Now, remember I mentioned that, less than a month after that running event, there was a dancing event where that older woman wanted both me and the younger woman to go to? Well I never got invited to that dancing event.

Probably half a year later, I sent the older lady a text message about that running event (particularly the part about sign up sheet) and asked her whether this was the reason I turned her off. The old lady said she doesn't know, but she suggested I ask that question to the younger lady and phrase it in the same way and she is sure she would answer. I told her I would rather not do it, because if she answers, I would feel compelled to argue about it and I know the argument would make things worse. She didn't reply to it.

Approximately a year later I finally DID send the text to the young lady about this. She responded by saying that she dind't see me in church (remember I talked about the fact that I take several months off when it comes to my church attendence) but there are such and such events going on in church and I should come. I said I am at the other state visitting my mom and by the time I come back these events would be over. She said "have a safe trip, maybe I will see you back when you come". So what I didn't like about this is that she didn't invite me anywhere "other than" church. I mean "of course" I can come to church if I want to -- just like 100 of other people can -- and I would have known about those events without her telling me about them. And then when I said I can't come to them, she said "maybe I see you at church" with the word "maybe", so that word "maybe" sounds discouraging. And, agian, why church? Why not invite me to those other things she was inviting me before? In any case I didn't answer anything to that message.

Then, a year after that, I again sent her a text message asking her whether I turned her off during the running event. She said that she has moved on and is now engaged. This leads to two questions. The phrase that she "moved on" implies that I did something to hurt her feelings. I mean, if I dind't, then what exactly did she move on "past"? But then the question is: what exactly did I do to hurt her feelings? As you see from the above, I was walking on eggshells trying super hard not to hurt her. Yes I did notice faux passes on my end, but that was very far from someone trying to hurt her. But she acts as if I knew exactly what I did and she just moved on past that (at least thats how I read the phrase "moved on").

And the other question is: why did she mentioned she was engaged? I thought it was the older lady who told me about the possibility of dating her -- while the young lady was not there. So if the young lady never intended to date me, and only intended to be friends, then how exactly is it relevant that she is now engaged? And if she "did" consider dating me, then why did she suggest that I run with her friend who runs faster than her? I mean her friend is also a female, so why would she encourage me to run with her female friend if she was considering dating me? Or could it be that she never wanted to date me, but she knew that I did, and thats why she told me about her engagement just to get me off her back (and she was telling me about her female friend for the same reason)?

In any case, in the response to that email I asked her "just for my own reference" what exactly did I do wrong. She said "Nope". Well, answering "Nope" sounds quite rude, does it not. So now it feels even more like she thinks I was being rude to her on purpose -- even though on my end I was just socially awkward.

But anyway, what do you think?

http://dev.wrongplanet.net/forums/viewt ... p?t=387442

(•) Other: Ask her.

My impression is that you are overthinking this. The running event was not a date. It was a test to see if you both had mutual interest that you could enjoy together. A way of becoming friends. But all your interactions with her showed an obsessive compulsive side to your personality. That was probably the turn off. So she backed away from moving the connection into a romantic relationship.

It seems like it might be time to tell a story. When I was in High School, I went on exactly 2 dates. Both dates were with he same girl. On the second date I took her to the movies. It was a romantic movie. During the movie, she rested her head on my shoulder, then I reached over and held hands. It was one of those romantic moments when I could have simply turn my head and kissed her and she would have melted into my arms. But while I was holding her hand, I began to think of the warts on my hand. I pondered whether warts could be transmitted from one person to another. I didn't know the answer. I thought it would be best for her safety if I just stopped holding her hand. Which I did!. She immediately turned cold. I mean Ice Cold.

Later, I asked her out on another date and she refused. I tried to explain my actions in the movie theater, but she had already made up her mind. Nothing I could have said would have changed her mind. She didn't even hear the words I said. They just passed through her like a breeze of wind, like an unintelligible whisper.

So if there is a lesson here, it is that sometimes THINGS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE and just move on.

Later when you talked to her, she mentioned church. That was another interest area that you shared. You might have taken her up on that and started attending her church regularly. You might have progressed into a friends stage. But there is a mismatch here. You are thinking romance while she is thinking friendship. Both are equally important and they intertwine.

Many times Aspies find it difficult to date. It is not a bad idea for Aspies to use intermediaries. These can be parents, trusted friends, relatives etc. to help arrange a date, a perfect match. Some people are natural matchmakers. So the older lady that you talked to was such a person. So from my perspective, allowing her to help you find a match was a very good idea. It didn't pan out in this case but the opportunity may appear again in the future. Take it.

Also the constant psychoanalyzing your actions and then verbalizing these to your date is a MAJOR TURN-OFF in my opinion. Best to just keep them to yourself.

Actually I think the first quote directly contradicts the second quote. Because the first quote implies that the two of you would have totally worked out "if only" you didn't make that stupid mistake.

The situation where "things aren't meant to be" applies to things that you can't help. For example, if I turn the woman off because she looks for someone rich and I am not rich, that would be the case of "it wasn't meant to be". But if I turned her off because I did something totally silly, then no, "it wasn't meant to be" wouldn't apply. I would be bargaining for a second chance to undo that "silly" thing if I were you.

By the way, I see from you are 71. How did the rest of your life pan out? Were you able to get married and have kids? How does your wife compare to that girl you missed out on?

If you read the very end of the OP, I finally did, and she refused to answer.

I read your thread. The jist of what you are trying to say is



And thats what I try to do in majority of situations. But the problem is that women don't approach me. And when I complain why don't women approach me, some people say "why don't you approach them yourself". Well, maybe the reason I don't is because its a bad idea (just like you articulated in that thread).

So I guess I can never win. If I don't take an initiative, then its my fault that I didn't take it. If I do take initiative then its my fault that I did.

Don’t listen to everyone’s advice; especially to the old people in church.

To be fair; you did a lot of faux pas too.

What Jimmy said.

So what would be your advise then? The question is: how to get women to approach me? I think you are the best one to ask this quetion. Because you are not going to dismiss it with "approach them first" -- you actually agree with me that I should wait for women to make the first move. So then what is your advice on what to do so that they make the first move like I been wanting for all those years?

I never said I didn't. Quite the opposite, I feel like I make faux pas all the time -- and thats why I can sympathize with Jimmy so much.

It happened to me with only very few women; I wouldn’t say don’t approach at all but don’t “chase”, there’s a big difference.
Like it is ok if you start a conversation with a girl but after that don’t be the one who always starts the conversation (whether irl or texting), if she never starts it then she is never interested.

My only advice is improve your physique; and don’t repeat these faux pas; and pray for good luck because there’s a big luck factor there.

She wasn’t interested in you. Move on.

The question though is this: was she not interested from the get-go, or did I "do" something that caused her to lose interest?

One reason I am asking this question is that the older lady didn't know me at all, outside of those interactions, yet she was a good friend of the young lady. So the fact that older lady tried to get us to date seem to suggest that at first the younger lady was interested and asked the old lady to help her out.

But then of course there is also another possibility. Its also possible that the younger lady was never interested on the first place, but the older lady decided that she knew what is best for the young lady and was trying to change her mind. I mean that happened to me once, when my mom tried to hook me up with a girl I wasn't interested in.

So which of these two things do you think have happened? Do you thonk she first liked me and I turned her off or do you think she never liked me on the first place?

Sorry, you post was so long and boring that I didn't finish it.

But since she refused to answer, you have your answer!

Or maybe a simple picture will give you a clue...

Last edited by Fnord on 20 Jul 2020, 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually it worked out quite well. I married a young woman when I was around 25 years old. We have been married for over 45 years and have 2 children and 5 grandchildren. I had to travel to the other side of the world to meet her. [I had corresponded with her for a year before I traveled overseas.] I proposed to her after 5 weeks. I had to use a language dictionary because she did not speak English and I did not speak Polish. She eventually accepted. It took a year to bring her to the States. Too much government imposed red tape and I almost didn't succeed except for Catch-22, great persistency, and the help of a U.S. Congressman.

I am an extreme introvert. She is an extreme extrovert. Our qualities compliment each other well. Her weaknesses and my strengths, my weaknesses and her strengths. So in my opinion the marriage worked out well. It is sort of like a yin and yang marriage.



The girl I married was the girl I was destined to marry. And I am pleased.

Last edited by jimmy m on 20 Jul 2020, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.