Liars and Gaslighters

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This is a topic for people who are in relationships, or have been.

The other day I asked about communication strategies or how to keep a conversation from spiralling into a disagreement, an argument or debate. I appreciate all the responses. Lots of people said it's frustrating when a civil conversation veers off track and one person thinks the other is starting an argument or being adversarial for having a difference of opinion.

That led to me thinking about the topic of lies, which led me to think of gaslighting. I'll define gaslighting as one person invalidating the other person's input and treating them like they're wrong or unstable, even if they contributed an opinion or a fact based on evidence and they aren't trying to fight.

This has nothing to do with anyone on the forum and I'm just reflecting on difficulties I had with previous partners when we would attempt any type of civil conflict resolution.

Without discussing any sensitive relationship problems or issues, does anyone have input about how to deal with people who tell us lies, who say that we're lying when we aren't, or people who attempt to gaslight us (especially for being autistic?)

Thanks so much.

Again, I'm just trying to start some LD topics about actual relationships, instead of "How to get a girlfriend", which has already been discussed ad nauseam.

In my experience they don't stop. So you have to just cut contact and hope to meet an honest person.

It is bad being told you're crazy all the time.

It might work well on autistic people cos we know we have a fault, so when we're told we're being overly suspicious we can believe it too much.

I have C-PTSD, a condition which is characterised by recurring feelings of guilt and shame.

When I feel "shamed" in a conversation it takes me quite some time to process whether I've been gaslighting myself to feel the shame (trauma response) or if the other person is actually shaming me (gaslighting technique).

I have to wait a little while and see if I can notice any patterns.

Like they say:

Fool me once: Shame on you
Fool me twice: Shame on me
Fool me again: Shame on us both

Yeah remembering each time instead of just doing 'forgive and forget ' is good.

There's a website specifically setup for spouses of those with ASD to complain.
That website was used to gaslight me. It's people complaining about their asd spouse being overly suspicious of them:)

I was never suspicious until nasty behaviour started, that website itself could be narcissists thinking they are married to someone who is overly suspicious....cos narcissists don't actually believe they are doing anything wrong.

^^^^
the whole situation is annoying and unhelpfull at best
the only allowed option, is run
there's no grey area, or maybe it's all teens ('till 30s) who have all life figured out and shame you

but with all people being narc at least a bit, its a spectrum
or you get to; if everyone is a narc am i the one who makes them behave that way?
what's the point of running then?

Well I got away from one and my life has improved so there's a point:)

It is tempting to blame yourself when someone mistreats you but is normal to everyone else.

"Liars and Gaslighters...and other honored guests...."

the important part of this ^ is having the actual time to process. if the space isn't given, and compounded gaslighting happens, there isn't time to process or notice patterns, in my experience. making sure there is ability to claim the space is a necessity.

^ Such an important point that.

Having C-PTSD myself, I can really relate to this. I tend to blame myself because of my extensive history with being gaslighted, so it can take me a long time to get out of a lousy situation.

I think abusive people often recognize people’s insecurities and are attracted to those who have trauma to begin with because they are easy targets. Autism also compounds things.

Moving forward, I’m going to try to be much more aware of red flags and less trusting overall.

Ah, the joys of being with a partner who makes you question the validity of your own thoughts. I don't miss those days.

I took to writing stuff down and addressing it later once I had time to put it on back burner and think on it some. Example, a partner says to me, hey, I'm going to the gas station, then they come back 45 minutes later even though the gas station is less than 5 minutes away. I ask about it, what happened? Are you okay? They say, oh yeah, I saw so and so and we got to talking. That happens once, not ridiculous or too far fetched. People do run into folks places and lose track of time catching up. It happens. But say it happens again, and again. I write that down. Probably not a great example, but it'll have to do. I'm not operating at 100% today.

But with the writing things down, when I am in a place where I can discuss it, I have ammo to back what I'm saying and can't be told I'm wrong about how many times. I have proof, if for no one else, for myself. And because I wait, I'm not coming at a person when I'm in a frazzled or emotional state so I can't be accused of being reactionary or whatever. If that person does try to tell me I'm wrong or acting like a lunatic, I tell them to go. I refuse to engage in that crap with people. Been there, done that. Over it. Never again.

Also, I should mention, that I am prone to being reactionary and my knee jerk reactions are not always spot on. Sometimes I'm way in the wrong. If I keep track of things I think seem off, I can revisit that stuff later with a cool, calm head and think to myself, yeah, that was dumb of me. Glad I kept my mouth shut. Sometimes I really am the jerk. I own that. I can struggle to see reality for what it is sometimes.

Lol same

It is worth noting that lying and gaslighting are inherently dishonest practices, and expecting good-faith behavior from such an individual is often just another trap to fall into. Getting you to believe that they can or will change is often a means of keeping you involved.

Keeping notes and evidence is a good idea for one's self, or to show others - but no amount of documentation or proof will make a truly manipulative person go "Hey, you know what? You're right. I should stop...", and actually stop, rather that starting back up again once you've relaxed.

Even things like notes and evidence can be spun by them to be a bad thing - "Wow, so you really keep a record of every LITTLE TINY THING I do wrong?" and paint you as harsh, or picky, or otherwise a bad person. They'll expect you to focus on "THIS problem here and now", and expect you to not bring up all the other times they've done the same thing - that way it's "just one time" instead of a pattern of behavior. Anything you do to protect yourself will be spun to make you seem insecure, insane, petty, etc.

Sometimes they will intentionally act extra-crazy, so that when you recount the events as they actually happened, they can make you sound like you're exaggerating, rather than them actually having acted like that.

Sometimes the only thing that can be done is to disconnect from the person. If you have to build a CSI level forensics analysis of their behavior to even get them to listen, they're already not interested in hearing you out. If you have to pull out the recordings and screen shots before they'll even acknowledge that you might be right, they're already not interested in listening. If they tell you how awful you are, but also don't want you to leave, they're just trying to back you into a corner.

Sometimes the best way to deal with them, is to not deal with them. Not that they'll make leaving easy, either.

Wow -- I think we must know the same people!
That's exactly how it works.

If you don't give proof, you're a liar.
If you do give proof, you're tracking them because you're paranoid.

Either way, it's your fault and you're the crazy one.

I rid myself of these people long ago but I'm still disgusted all these years later.

Great post. Thanks so much.

Thank you, and you're welcome.

I've known more than my share of abusive, manipulative, or otherwise unsavory individuals. Some of them I'd considered my friends, until I became the enemy for having the audacity to call them out for being sneaky and dishonest when caught being sneaky and dishonest - or otherwise holding them accountable for their behavior.

It takes strength and resolution to stand fast in the storm of their self-serving fury. Hence why they prey upon the vulnerable and insecure.

If your partner pathologically lies to you, or gaslights you, there is a need to become single or find another partner quick-smart, pronto.

This is particularly vital advice to those on the spectrum who have an innate tendency to be trusting and honest.

The skunk has spoken.