The ethical dilemma

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For as long as I've been around, observing myself, observing the world around me, there are certain issues that I know that I have to face up to - both with myself and with other people. The main element - while I know I've lived a somewhat privileged life in terms of being able to make friends, being able to have an active social life, I know that - for the most part - my mannerisms, my overall presence, gives away to even women more particularly than guys - I have a disability. Its not something I can hide. For some odd reason many people around me can't see it, mostly friends or people who know me, people who don't - they can see it plain as day.

So, with online dating - like anyone else here I can show that I have a great personality, show that I do have a lot to offer but, when everything's written in words and people don't get to see my mannerisms or hear my speech right off the top - its a problem. My ethical dilemma is this; for most women, it seems like they're worst case scenario, their worst nightmare, is ending up on a date with a guy like myself. I don't feel sorry for myself, there's no reason to. At the same time I'm caught inbetween two things - one that everyone around me, my friends, my family, don't want me to give up on this. At the same time, I quite literally feel like I'm doing something to people by putting myself out there. For anyone who looks around the forum and feels like the supposed 'loser aspie' guys are the emotionally immature, the guy's living in their parents basement at 40 with a harddrive full of hentai, it couldn't be farther from the truth - its a working stereotype in some cases but I realize this has *nothing* to do with personality or choice of personality and everything to do with how AS/PDD effects you outwardly. It seems like the bottom like is - do you superficially come off as normal or are there a million red flags that the opposite sex picks up just by nuance about everything they see off the top.

So, what's right? Am I supposed to put myself out there, go on some terrifically bad dates, and through all the static and dissonance that I'm getting from them let them know that its ok, that I mean nothing by it and expect nothing from them, and politely shake hands or depart letting them know that I appreciate them at least coming out and that I'm ok with their decision? Most people simply aren't ready for that kind of altruism. I do know that my efforts are zero sum, I can force myself to act more normal but my functionality fluctuates with the weather. The way other people would make me feel about this is that its unjust, that I'm a defacto loser, and that what I do to people just by putting myself out there is practically unforgiveable - its like highschool never went away and never will, my situation (I won't say our because everyone has varying degrees of this) is of a permanent stigma.

I can go through the rest of my life, just bite the bullet, and be the best person I can - while realizing that my exile from this side of things is absolute. The reason I could never pity myself and refuse to is because I have no right - I've talked to some girls on here, even met them IRL, and unfortunately the way I get judged - I have the same problem of not being able to be attracted to most, its like I need a higher functioning level and its something that, just by my form, I'm not entitled to. As long as I reject what society says I'm allowed to have, that's it - its a no go and I have no right to think that who I am or what I need in terms of someone else is in any way justified. For anyone who I have talked to on here - I liked them as people, I'm more than willing to be a friend, I mean no hurt, but the nasty thing is that the dating world, this aspect of life, really does commoditize all of us and by the most eugenic terms possible.

Bleh, I have no idea whether to call this a rant or not, but I still feel very conflicted now about following through with online dating - if I can't see something obvious about someone else that would make things click right off the top, which frankly never happens, sure I can give people the benefit of the doubt but I have to wonder if it isn't self-delusion; denying that my infirmity exists (largely on the constant brainwashing of the people around me that I have no right to think that little of myself). I wish there was a fair way to sort this out but I know this world isn't built for our comfort or warm fuzzy feelings, putting my due dilligence in with the dating world may well be a practice of watching my own worst nightmares about myself and my disconnect with others being constantly reaffirmed. I may need to get rejected by or reject 88 or 100 women before I even find one that it can marginally work with - I used to almost weep when I heard of other aspie guys going through that, swore I wouldn't throw myself under the bus like that just because I was too proud, now I'm taking a different perspective on it as well like I need to face up to that just to do the 'right thing'....but then again, should I even be thinking about ending up in an arrangement where the idea is procreation? Do I even have the right?

Lots of deep questions here, again I refuse to have self-pity, just that I understand how core and no-fault these biases are - I'm no better sadly. I don't want to talk really about 'hey, you just need to fix up x, y, and z about yourself' - I've beaten myself half to death with that in the past and like any progress of that nature, it pushes an elastic boundary, I have to go absolutely crazy on self-improvement, and once I try to take a breather and get my mental health back (yes, it takes that much over-exertion) it all caves back in on me or, it caves back in even without me letting up. Its not a situation that knowledge or will-power will let a person get through, its really a situation of what kind of muzzle your genes have over your absolute limits. If you don't have a low ceiling you can self-improve your way out of this, if the disability element of your condition is that profound though - there's not much to be said. Don't hang yourself over the opposite sex, that's the wrong move, but try to get the paradigm right - you aren't worthless, you aren't inferior, but you will have to deal with the world treating you this way for the rest of your life and on account of that you'll have to be incredibly resilient in both keeping your own value inwardly and allowing for this situation as an almost certain and permanent reality.

Too much has caved in on me recently and too much of it's completely incorrigible for me to just hide out in the world of 'If I try hard enough I can fix it' - it just doesn't work like that for whatever reason.

On the ethical question itself, you are absolutely not doing anything wrong to other people.

I don't even think the word, "disabled," fits here. Unless you're talking about some other kind of disability, if it's just mannerisms, you are who you are.

However, you might consider a practical question. I never tried this on-line dating thing, but it doesn't sound like it would work for you. I think modern culture is unnatural and more judgemental. I don't believe people were like this 50 or 100 years ago. Blame the mass media and the superficial emphasis. I would think that on-line dating would be the worst of all.

Is there any way for you to just get out more? Take some college courses where you'll see more people? A college can have a big cultural mix, and that might make a difference. You don't say anything about background, college or work. (In this economy you might not have the luxury of job hopping.)

I'd say join an Aspie group, but I'm having trouble finding one myself, and I'm just looking for a local support group. If you're in a heavily populated area, that might work. Then again, I did meet one girl, near your age, who is totally eligible. Are you anywhere near my area?

Shame on you; you should know better.

Lately people have been suggesting that aspies should date outside of their own race/culture because of societal norms. You're a smart guy though, you probably have already done so, but do it some more, and make sure you don't let any of your 'catholic reservations' get in the way. Don't let the catechism pervuade your life. My most successful relations were with those of different backgrounds.

I agree. My most successful relationships have been with women from foreign countries.

I understand how you feel. I recently gave up on online dating as I felt so bad about it. I felt like I was tricking people into thinking I was something that I wasnt. I felt such anxiety that they would not like me really and I could not bare even meeting the people.

I think it is better for me to find a partner in real life as at least then they get a better measure of my character and manner. I organised an aspie meet up, but the stress of being the organiser was a bit too much for me and I would not like to do that regularly. I think I might try and get my local autism group to help me with that and get them to take the phone calls (as I found that the worst bit) and help me arange a venue.

Its all so difficult to find a 'fit' as my ideas are odd and my politics extreme and I am quite a brash/strong character that is not very appealing to people. Men seem to prefer modest, quiet women not vulgar, loud ones lol. I think the odds of finding someone who could like me and me like them back is so far off. Its so hard though as I think our biology is so hard wired for us to be driven to find a mate so we are cursed with these needs and motivations.

I really think that's an illusion, its something that's been fed to us by the "Oh, the world's going to hell in a handbasket" people. At other times in human history people may have been more subtle about it, or at other times they may have been blunt enough to throw people from rocks (ie. Sparta) but the human race has always been like this.



That is a good idea, but its a good idea mostly just for upgrading what I have and upgrading achievements. I have a bachelors degree, graduated highest honors, the only trouble is my current position is 40k a year - so I'm still living pretty closely. I have options, I'm thinking them through, it may be a while though. As for going back for a masters, my current job conflict because partially I have a lot of travel for work and also because I can't see any rational reason why they'd fund it - they'd be paying out of pocket technically to lose me.



I was in one, one I had something to do with bugging a local psych about founding. It was ok and all, there were some girls in there but I can't really say I had any interest. The groups tend to be small, largely unknown, and it seems like far more people who know they have AS don't come to sights like Wrongplanet and it seems like vice a versa that a great many feel know particular urge to go to an IRL aspie support group.

BTW, I appreciate the advice, all of it good. In some senses though I do have to be careful about getting my hopes up regarding the mileage that I can get out of these things.

That thought's never crossed my mind.

My only problem with your idea is can this person relate to me? The reason I never got excited about dating outside my race (unless she was 2nd or 3rd generation American) was twofold - a) the perspective differences b) she still had some settling in to do and I'd feel safer with a girl who likes me for who I am after the American values have set in (and can have a better conversation) as much as they will rather than someone who still has that to go through. Usually in that situation, when I thought about it, I felt like I'd just be taking advantage of a cultural gap and even aside from what I mentioned it has a lot of caveats along with it.

Thinking about this a bit more and having gone on a few more dates I think I'm starting to understand how to deal with this a lot better; not that I've had to employ it but by the fact that I've been able to see the mechanics at play a little bit better.

I think for us to really even the score and make sure it all goes smoothly, we have to articulate our awareness of ourselves, our oddities, not directly but at least nonverbally in terms of how well we roll things off. I think an NT's worst nightmare of dating someone with a disability is not being interested (either because of the disability or other factors) and that person laying a political correctness guilt trip on them. I think my best strategy is to make sure when I'm out on dates that they know that I have no steeped demands of them and even more so that, if my weirdness bugs them out and they can't date someone who's like this - no worries, I understand my position and won't be offended. The trickier area yet, where I could very easily judge myself after someone's made efforts to look past it and I'm not interested in them; its about making sure that they know you aren't on a high horse and that they know your saying as much because you see too many areas where they'd have to change themselves past what they could be happy with or vice a versa and that you don't think its fair to them or to you.

I tend to think empathy can be a learned skill, maybe I'm wrong and I've just been lucky in this regard, if anything though I think our biggest challenge with empathy is knowing how to use it to deal with the caveats of our situation and effectively reassure and communicate around our differences.

Honestly, I think you're stressing out too much over this, for several reasons:

1) You're putting women on a pedestal, and acting like they are perfect and that you will somehow soil them or use them, detract from their purpose in life. Rest assured that all women want something, especially the closer they get to 30, and as their biological clock starts ticking, their standards get more and more relaxed about who to marry. They are not perfect by any means, have their own issues, and many also have AS.

2) You're focused too much on yourself, so much so that it borders on narcissism or selfishness. You have this negative feedback loop going where you are constantly monitoring yourself and the other person's reaction to you, projecting things on them that they may not be feeling, all in the self-centered view that everything revolves around your effect on the environment. You're ignoring other variables, and coming to a universally negative conclusion that you are the negative effect on others and your environment. You think you are being considerate, but you are actually making it very hard for people to date you or be around you. I should know, because I have also had this problem.

Take this into consideration -- every day thousands of people get together, many of them much worse people than you are. Gang members, convicted criminals, child molesters, rapists, and just overall stupid people with genes far less worthy than yours. As an AS you actually have a lot to offer society, including above-average intelligence, conscientiousness, law-abiding behavior, and a regard for your environment.

Stop beating yourself up so much and just find the right girl. She's out there, just relax, be yourself, be nice, be polite, and find your match. We're all animals here, and mating is what we're designed for. You're not some alien implanted on Earth, and if you are, there are a lot of female aliens here as well.

Also, read this and tell me if it describe you at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_p ... y_disorder

Not entirely sure what kind of message I'm sending by analyzing this but I'd at least like to give it all due context.

Not so much that as I just feel like this world's crazy, the reactions I get in general are too divided to really grasp what I can expect overall, and because of that I end up being at risk for being swept by the moment and saying things like I did in the original post. I guess the way I see so many people trash and obliterate their lives, it makes so little sense that I've almost given up on having any expectations of their being a rhyme or reason that I can relate to.



I try to go with a combination of historical context and giving people the benefit of the doubt. In my day though, part of what's been so bizarre and confusing, is I've had enough worst case scenarios come true in reference to my AS (not my behavior or social skills so much as gestalt) that - while I try not to be negative, quite often nothing really surprises me or seems too far-fetched either.

Don't get me wrong, I've always hated thinking about myself this much but at the end of the day I always found that I had no choice - it was either that or really lose control of my environment and be at the next person's mercy (which almost never lead to a result that I wanted). Its getting better as I've gotten older, hopefully the more I can really figure out about life the less I'll feel the need or reflexive impulse to self-examine over everything.



This I wholeheartedly agree with you on. Sadly though, the gene pool and natural selection are really perverse - certain faults and weaknesses are ignored while some seeming much milder can almost completely obstruct; most of this going back to our roots and that we've only changed so much over 100,000. Also acknowledging that success in the area of simply procreating is no guarantee of a happy or even remotely successful life - I'd far rather be happy and be single than have the other way around if it had to be a diametric choice. If we really want to chase this thought though, its easy enough to debate that we really have no idea why we're here to begin with and that everyone under the sun is taking an ethical gamble by procreating, the relationship world though is something all its own just in that the genders do have certain seemingly rigid differences in processing, emotional and logical trajectory, and for most people who aren't on the other gender's straight-and-narrow its a hell of a project just trying to figure out what's really going on and what can be done about it.





In reading it I can see some parallels but I don't see where my outlook on self is that negative. The best way I can describe it is almost like having a split sense of identity; I like myself for who I am as a person, I aim to do whatever I can to help and reassure that side of myself - and I do everything I can to validly earn my own respect.

On the other side I know that I have challenges, and yes - in my past and probably due to looks vs. AS I had another girl checking me out every two weeks for a very long time and having the end result always turn out the same - for some magic reason, I was not ok. Having that happen seemingly hundreds of times is a bit of a headtrip, also having enough women who you meet seemingly disgusted by or scared of you when you realize that they're seeing a person that's not really there and its not the typical stuck up sorts that you'd just blow off and disregard. Yes, you end up questioning yourself and trying to figure out what's going on, what your doing to cause this, because the logic occurs to you that its in your court - that if its a universal reaction, you pretty much deserve what you get for not trying to correct the situation. Combine that with not being able to stable or sane results and yes, your in a bit of a knowledge vacuum which pushes you to think even harder. Add to that your own strange caveats, aversions, instabilities, especially when they don't bare reference to your values - and its a pretty good recipe for having no idea what's up from down, left from right, forward from backward. Until that kind of thing is resolved its almost impossible not to analyze the heck out of things or come to some rather suspect interem conclusions at times.

Overall though, if you have a chance do look at my last post - I think its a rather positive way of handling the 'disability' dissonance or at least whatever degree of it you encounter in a given situation.