My opinion as to "nice guys finishing last" &

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I've been thinking about this issue for awhile and it has always interested me. It is of a particular interest to me because of the saying that has become so cliche' on this website forum "Girls only go after arrogant guys and badboys, they never go after nice guys and nice guys will always finish last".

I am one of those "nice guy" types, like many of my slightly autistic brethren, and I've almost always had a pessimistic view of women romantically, but now I think I understand why "nice guys" do finish last romantically. This isn't a sudden epiphany, I have been trying to figure this out and have read books and asked friends about this subject.

Although the belief that "girls only go after arrogant guys and badboys" is a bit of a generalization, there might be some truth to it. Since women view love as the "emotion connection" they have with a guy, it would make sense that women are more emotionally receptive than guys. Thus they might deem arrogance or confidence as attractive because it is an emotional indicator that the guy thinks highly of himself and seems to be on the ball. I believe that women like upbeat and positive guys because their optimism makes girls feel confident about themselves as well. Anyone who is emotionally down or sad will bring a girl emotionally down, and that is something girls don't want.

Now to "nice guys finishing last"- I see this strictly as "survival of the fittest". What I say may sound cruel and insensitive, but I believe this to be the truth. I think that men have only one first impression with women, and if that impression goes poorly, the chances of approaching the same woman romantically are slim to none. I think that women, either consciously or subconsciously, look for males that have higher "survival" rate in the sense that a woman can be with them romantically and successfully without any fear of anything going to badly. This tends to suit assertive guys, confident guys, arrogant guys, playful guys, and jerks (note jerks are no synonymous with the other subtypes of guys )

I think that when most women meet a nice guy, they automatically see he is not assertive, aggressive, or overly confident. They may learn this by "testing" the guy and seeing what he will do for them. If a guy shows that he is easily manipulated because of his kindness (if he does anything the girls asks), if he shows that he has trouble standing up for his own ideas and beliefs, or if he has trouble saying "no" to a woman, he has already shown himself to be unfit for survival with a gal romantically. If he can't put his foot down and stand up for himself, then I believe the woman will know that he won't be able to stand up or protect her if need be. Therefore, he is automatically eliminated from any other successful attempt at being with her romantically, unless he can prove that he has some survival value to her, which is hard to do after being rejected. If he tries to ask her out or be romantic with her, she will a.) politely say "No, I'm not interested or b.) will ignore his playful advance. Thus he becomes merely a "friend", because the girl enjoys his company on a friendship level, but otherwise considers him unfit to be with her romantically.


Cruel, insensitive perhaps? There are some exceptions, but I believe this is true. But I enjoy debate and the sharing of new ideas and opinions, so tell me what you all think. Do you agree with me, or do you think I'm just some misogynistic whiner looking for a chance to slander women romantically? Either way, I' d like to hear what you have to say

to a certain extent I would agree with you but probably not the parts you would think. In my experience women do like to go for confident, charismatic guys but they had better be nice along with it. Jerks are off the menu entirely and if men are over confident they can get lost. My main disagreement with you is where you say ", if he shows that he has trouble standing up for his own ideas and beliefs, or if he has trouble saying "no" to a woman, he has already shown himself to be unfit for survival with a gal romantically. If he can't put his foot down and stand up for himself, then I believe the woman will know that he won't be able to stand up or protect her if need be. Therefore, he is automatically eliminated from any other successful attempt at being with her romantically". Your reasoning is off. I personally don't care if a guy can protect me but there has to be give and take so if a girl gets what she wants constantly she is basically making all the decisions which is really stressfull besides who wants to be a with a guy who's so nervous around his girlfriend that he can't even voice an opinion personality or niceness have nothing to do with it. It's the lack of personal connection. No girl wants the relationship to be socially one sided.

I see your reasoning and I would agree with you on many parts of it. The only reason there is a negative and insensitive slant to my opinion is because of my unpleasant encounters with women because I am nice guy.

I agree with you when you said "she is basically making all the decisions which is really stressful besides who wants to be a with a guy who's so nervous around his girlfriend that he can't even voice an opinion personality or niceness have nothing to do with it. It's the lack of personal connection. No girl wants the relationship to be socially one sided"

But then again, that goes hand in hand with being "deemed" romantically unfit for a relationship. I was perhaps wrong in my assessment as to if a guy protects a girl or not, but I think I hit the nail on the head concerning my analysis on impressions. If you show that you are easily manipulated, if you show that you can't (as well as might) not be able to stand up for yourself, or if you have trouble saying no, you are rooted out and tossed aside. If you seem to be weak, even if you aren't really, you will be viewed as weak and unworthy. I think it comes down to impressions, and if you can't prove your worth or if you seem like you can't prove your worth romantically, a girl won't give you a chance. Survival of the fittest, the weak will be overlooked romantically.

A couple questions...

Do all people make lasting critical value judgments of other people purely on initial meetings?

This baffles me; until I know someone, how can I understand their merits... all too often we assume that once a friend, always a friend. And to this end, I will disagree to my dying day.

Where does the line between charisma and cockiness, confidence and contempt, get drawn?

Objectively, when does envy begin to distort the truth and blind our perspectives? Could it be that our own suffering blinds us to the possibilities?

Does no one in this hypothetical world change their mind?

Is every potential mate cut from the same cloth in your mind, therefore dependent on the those same cues of attraction?


M.

when i asked a female friend about this, her answer was:

"of course! nice boys are boring. they like boring stuff like books and video games while bad boys like exciting stuff like cars, parties, clubbing, etc."

nothing to do with confidence at all.

Agreed. I think the terms "nice guys" & "bad boys" are misnomers. Nice guys aren't all that nice, & bad boys aren't really that bad. It's all about boring vs. interesting.

Video games are boring? I wasn't aware that taking a ride (and I mean that literally, I can't even say acid trip here) was more interesting than going on a killing spree...

Boring is relative. Clubbing and fast cars are ultimately boring if you live long enough. At a certain point, stability becomes attractive. But you still have to be exciting enough to attract and retain.

QFT. There are women out there who are turned off by cars and parties; there are those who have lived that life and decided that it isn't for them anymore. There are myriad millions upon millions of types and subtypes, and these gross generalizations are doomed to be ineffective and fail.


M.

I never was the outgoing type so clubbing isn't exactly my idea of a turn on nor cars. I don't know what it is with cars and how they're suppose to be a turn on for women. Probably a social status type of thing.

For me, I like guys who have some insight or interests that're similar to mine like history, art, and music. There's nothing more great than to actually talk to a guy about things you have in common.

Some women are into status and wealth. I don't particularly know why. I've never really identified or found money and power all that sexually appealing. Sometimes I wonder if the media has something to do with it as well as hierarchy.

I've noticed most women kind of match up to their guys when it comes to clothes, cars, and whatever. So I kind of wonder if it's like natural competition on their choices in partners that're relatively similar to themselves.

AutisticMalcontent, I notice you are 22. I've seen that a lot of the "Nice Guys Finish Last" and "Bad Boys Get all the Girls" threads are by guys in the 15-25 age range, and no wonder, because at those ages, women do tend to act like that.

I think the closer you get to 30, the more you will see it's not the case anymore. Somewhere around 25 (depending on the girl's maturity), women start focusing more on guys who will stay loyal, have good job prospects (and thus will be good providers for the children they will have with the woman), and show a general propensity towards staying alive vs. risk taking behavior.

For women this happens because of the biological clock. The closer they get to 30 and beyond, the lower fertility gets, and since a lot of women do want to eventually have children, those who haven't and who haven't gotten married suddenly feel the time crunch. A lot of guys they wouldn't give the time of day to in their teen and college years suddenly look a lot more attractive, and the balance of power shifts to the men. Men of course can have children into their senior years (just ask Clint Eastwood), so they have none of this pressure -- at the ripe age of 45, you can still pretty easily pick up a college-aged GF who has a daddy complex, and start on kids then if you want.

I think this is nature's revenge for the average guy. I'm not totally clear why women are so different in their tastes in their teen years (when they are the most fertile) -- it might be remnants of our hunter gatherer ancestry, where lifespans were regularly under 30 years. Once we hit longer lifespans, women's strategy shifted to the long haul, plus an older woman, with or without kids (but especially with) would need to find a provider for herself and her kids, so this is also a factor.

So don't be so pessimistic about your chances -- you're all pretty young men right now, with a lot of life ahead of you. I'm speaking from experience, and used to have the same worries, but at age 33, I've seen a lot of what I thought was true invalidated by the biological clock in women. If anything, in your 30s, you'll have a hard time not getting married, as most women push the issue around then.

... why put yourself in boxes?

The number one quality women like in a man is charisma. Remember that.

Very thorough and well stated, I would certainly agree with your opinion and perhaps experience on this issue. I do know that what you say is very true, the need for survival instead of superficial whims will kick into women later on. As you stated yourself, their need of survival will drive them to date nice guys later on in life, so they can have families.

Rather pathetic and ironic though, that most girls won't give nice guys the time of day in their youth, but as soon as they get older and need dependency for survival, they come back to use with a smile on their face and pretend nothing ever happened. You know, I must retract that statement, because in honesty, they do not know what they do, I believe. When they reject nice guys on the premise that they are "boring and undesirable", they don't have an understanding of the impact it has on nice guys. But I can't help to find it conveniently ironic that they don't need us when they are young and can fool around without much reprieve, but the older they become, they somehow see our usefulness and go with that.

I'm speaking in generalizations, so let me narrow my observations to girls who reject nice guys early in life and end up dating or marrying them later in life.

But I must ask you a question- Is it really worth waiting all this time to wait for women to wise up and forsake their superficial and immature tendencies to finally settle down when they're older and need companionship? I would like to know based on your experience if you deem it worthwhile to wait. I'm not trying to be patronizing, I would really like to know.

yes, and bad boys, cars, parties, and clubbing will get them very little in the long run in life, these are merely temporary fixes for short term problems.

I married a 'nice guy' and god do I wish I had gone for a couple of bad boys first.