The cart before the horse...

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One thing I seem to read time and again is the scenario of an individual telling someone that they either have known in a platonic fashion awhile, or even just admired from afar, that they "love them" with immediacy; there seems to be an expectation that this is how relationships work, especially those who have been hurt by the limbo of friendship. Talking to some of my female friends, which is an admittedly small group, they all remark that such declarations would at best be sweet but uncomfortable, and perhaps even creepy depending on the situation. When the desire for a relationship outweighs the actual desire for the person themselves, then the person pursued is an object not an individual. Is this something others see repeating itself?


M.

The thing is women will be friends with a guy, and hang out with him on a regular basis, even though they wouldn't date him if he was the last man on Earth. Completely different expectations.

I've known of some very successful marriages that have risen out of 10-20 year friendships. A girl I knew a while back was engaged to a guy she had been friends with since third grade. One man I knew didn't even consider dating his wife at first, but then things happened.

The problem is when you assume that the expectations are the same for friends and partners. Most women will be friends with guys they would never consider dating, and often guys they would love to date but just haven't made any moves with. Unless you know what you're doing, it can be difficult to know which category of 'friends' you're in. Are you the guy she wouldn't date if you were the last man on Earth, or the guy she's attracted to but wants you to make the first move?

Yes, completely different expectations - but if you're not qualified to be a friend, how can you be thought of as anything more? My own relationship is borne out of an eight year friendship, so I am familiar with the scenario although we were attracted to each other from the start. If you launch into claims of undying love to someone you scarcely know, you will likely frighten them off... that was the point of the post, I am sorry if that wasn't clear. You never answered when I asked the first time - when you use "you" are you referring to me or a person-at-large? It is the agenda and rush to romance that seems to create a problems in meeting people more than anything, in my opinion.


M.

Anytime I give advice and I use the term 'you', and it's not specifically directed towards one individual, 'you' refers to anyone who reads the post.

I would have to agree, while qualifying. Most NTs will casually date people they don't know well. Essentially, it's nothing more than a way of saying they're a potential romantic interest, and they want to get to know them better to see if the feelings are justified. Sometimes people let lust get in the way of things, and the relationship crashes, but that's why you don't need divorce papers to bail out of a relationship.

Really, I'm having trouble seeing how dating=relationship. People date those they think they might want a relationship with in the near future, and once they know each other better, may very well consider themselves a couple.

If one of them finds the connection wasn't there to begin with, the words "It's not you, it's me" or some close variant should be expected. Really, that's just a way to let someone down easy, instead of completely crushing their ego by saying "I have no romantic interest in you whatsoever."

Ok, I came to reply here just to make your thread a little bit more popular lol , don't mind I am messing...

Relationship is not "more" than friendship , they are completely 2 different things, you might be qualified to be a friend by some girl's opinion but not qualified to be a partner for her.

In my experience, what you claim is not the case... that is not to say that there are not phases when what a woman (or a man, for that matter) is different, more short-term goals over long-term, for lack of a better way to describe it - but that relationships are in part deep friendships, that connections rooted in a more fleeting basis are unstable and brief. One could be considered to be a friend but not a potential partner, but I cannot think of a situation where one would consider a partner who would not also be worthy of being considered a good friend.


M.

I think that when guys are very alone romantically, all objectivity is thrown out the window. I think that most guys are objective perhaps after 1 or 2 rejections, but once they start getting rejected for long periods of time, they start to lose their sense of moderation as to what they want.

I think guys want relationships so badly because they think it will be a "cure" for their ailment, which is loneliness. Everyday, they see couples everywhere, holding hands, or doing some other activity and having fun while doing so. Television and the media constantly remind us that we would be having a great time if we were in "love" or had someone special. I think there is a lot of pressure on guys to conform to our society, which values romantic love and relationships.

Like I said, objectivity is lost when you are very lonely romantically, and it makes you feel out of place. You want to have the assumed "happiness" that everyone else has. Therefore, as you stated, you put the cart before the horse, there is a desperate need to fufill your loneliness, and you want everything to work out beautifully according to plan.

You don't really want to meet girls and become friends with them, then slowly become romantically interested in them, and finally date them. It takes too long, and why do you have to go through all that?

These were the things I felt a long time ago, before I kind of wised up a little bit. I can't say what I experienced is indicative of all Aspie guys, I'm just speaking for myself.

I don't get this part, do you mean that any guy who really like the girl and do the common mistake by trying to approach the girl through friendship ....then that means that this guy see the girl as object but not as individual?

It depends whether the guy see the girl as a potential partner or just as a relation/sex tool , it depends how much the guy like the girl and if he really likes her not just because she's some available female.

In other side, a guy who ask out over 20 girls per month (a strategy that you personally don't oppose) is exactly the type of guy that you're describing Maku , because such guy has a desire for relationship which outweighs the actual desire for a specific person so he starts asking girls out left and right till he gets the first 'yes' instead on focusing on some girl(s) he really knows and like. Am I right?

I mean that I see many posts talking about telling girls they barely know that they 'love' them, and the resulting awkwardness and distance. When it is the goal of a relationship instead of the woman herself, then it is not too surprising to me that they would not be interested - it is a matter of seeing the woman as the means instead of the end, making her a tool on the road to the end goal, and not the cause celebre. I don't disagree with that philosophy of asking girls out, because you are not making an emotional overture to them - you're asking them to go out, spend time, get to know each other. This preconception of intricate romance inherent to every date is not something I adhere to, and feel that connections usually start as platonic or carnal and work back towards the romantic in time... simply my own beliefs. Asking a girl to have coffee? Even several a week? All for it. Declarations of deep love when you've never talked for more than five minutes, not so much.


M.

Don't you think that most of those are teens? The difference between love and lust may be confusing sometimes.



and I knew many girls who fell in "love" with a guys that barely know , so girls who do that also see those guys are objects. Your lady friends never told that they experienced such thing in some phase too, no?




Asking a girl out = "I think that I have some feelings toward you , I am interested in you , I see you as potential partner and I want to find out how much compatible we are".

This is the literal meaning of Dating and it has no other one, how come a guy who ask 20 girls per month would have the enough time to know if he's interested in that girl and see her as a potential partner? How can he even get the necessary time to develop some feelings toward her her? Such guy would ask a girl out just after a minutes of meeting her, isn't he asking her just because she's a potential female that attracted his attention (physically) ?



Going out for several a week is good, and how can he do that while he's asking so many girls? That's not even feasible in his case.



This is lust, not love.

No, I don't presume they are all teens - I've read examples here from individuals in college and a couple that were considerably older. And even at a young age, I think it is important for that information to be imparted to them... that such statements and overtures are not likely to get the desired result. I never said that women were exempt from this behavior; I used a female example only due to the frequency of male complaints on this site making it slightly more relevant. Any time that the person is made secondary to the connection, it is almost assured there will be problems due to the objectification of the individual.

We disagree on dating, LPP. That hasn't changed. I don't presume that I have 'feelings' for someone when I have asked them out; I have an interest. Curiosity. Desire to know more. Superficial attraction, even if it was only finding the book she was reading to be of interest to me. You continue to identify it with a stronger emotional state, and as long as we have these different standards then you are not going to understand the point of the approach I suggest. Yes, the point is to determine compatibility... and to have a chance to meet people, one has to keep asking and getting to know members of the gender they are attracted to. Let's do a little math - this hypothetical guy asks 20 women out for a date/event each month. What success rate shall we use? 10%? That's 2 first dates per month. Taking it further, the first date will give a sense of whether one or both parties wants to continue the process of getting to know each other - which will have a success rate of less than 50%. So let's say that there would be a second date every other month. That's 24 first dates a year and 6 second dates - not astounding numbers, but at least gives us some numbers to start from. One dates to see if feelings grow; one does not date once feelings have developed... otherwise it will almost assuredly be one-sided as the relationship did not 'grow' together.

You quoted me out of context, LPP:

I am aware of what lust is, and I am aware that lustful fixations are often a familiar substitute for love when the desire for love is unmet. Thus why I made reference to the fact that such claims of adoration out of the blue are more likely to be distressing than successful.


M.

Makuranososhi, I'm with you on this one -- I don't know if this is a result of Aspie fixation/obsession, shyness, lack of experience, or all 3, but a lot of guys here seem to think they are "in love" (and not just the teens) with someone they barely know. This reflects either a very immature or delusional sense of what a relationship is, what love is, and how it differs from lust and idealization.

I also concur that telling someone you barely know that you love them is not only disquieting/disturbing in most cases, it also pretty much craps the bed in terms of any chances you might have had with that person. It places an undue amount of pressure on them, and if they did like you a little bit (though a lot of these seem like "worship from afar" crushes), it takes away the challenge of them having to win you, and thus all the fun for them.

I noticed in another poll on this forum about "the ideal love life" that about half of us were in the "I just want to do my own thing and get some love when I want it" category, while a full 33% or so were in the "I just want to worship and dedicate my life to someone else" category. That's kinda scary and sad, because it's actually a selfish way of going through life as well -- maybe that person doesn't want you waiting on them hand and foot, wants some privacy, wants some space. I can tell you that even the most well-meaning people who do everything for you can still get on your friggin nerves by not giving you privacy and breathing space. It really doesn't take the other person's wishes into consideration, just the fulfillment of your own desires.

So yeah, I think in a lot of ways these "I love you" crushes do put the cart before the horse, and are a very shallow way of approaching a relationship. In the case of the very socially isolated, I understand the reasons why, but it doesn't justify it or make it any more likely to happen.

bsg, thank you for the response - you made some points that I hadn't considered, and stated the issue regarding pressure better than I did initially. Also, I found it interesting you brought up the poll results... for me, neither of these two most popular extremes works. What I have looked for, what I have found, is a relationship where we are both independent, yet freely give ourselves over to the other. For what may well be the first time, I not only long for and desire to care for another person, but trust that she will be there to support me in kind. Perhaps it is immersion in incomplete examples showing these idealizations instead of what is actually at root of relationships that helps to create this problem.


M.

Dating based on superficial attraction is what I see as "putting the cart before the horse"... You're putting yourself in all these situations where you just know that it wouldn't work out anyway, so why bother?

I'm not saying that you should have no interactions with the person in question at all until you date... that's actually closer to the "dating complete strangers" method that you describe. There are plenty of other ways to interact with members of the opposite sex that you're attracted to other than dating... Take me for instance: of all the women I have fallen for over the years, one of them I met while doing an acting stint for live musical theater. The rest I met in various groups from my church... In all these cases, I was pretty much not attracted to any of them from the start, rather it was spending time in these various activities with these women that my attraction eventually grew out of... and that, by far, feels far more natural than walking up to a complete stranger and asking for a date...

Even so, if someone had been a friend for a while and they suddenly came out with delarations of love that would probably scare most people. You might perhaps have feelings of attraction or interest, you might really like them... but love? That's too much too fast... a bit too Romeo and Juliet. I swear those two can only get away with that sort of behaviour because they're teenagers.

I'm not saying it's "suddenly" transitioning from friendship to love... that is a more gradual procedure...

Although, to be completely honest, it may seem like that to the other party, given the general body language issues aspies have...