would you like to have amazing success with women?

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I've noticed a lot of guys are asking advice in this dating forum and I'm glad so many people are willing to chime in with suggestions.

However, most of the advice is completely wrong, albeit good intentioned.

I've spent hundreds of hours going out at night to clubs and bars in order to figure out how "romance" works. If you haven't spent as much time going out studying this stuff as I have or if you're a virgin, please don't try to argue with me based on the limited experience you think you have.

I'm going to be sharing my knowledge with you guys through concise no-bs tidbits of knowledge that I plan to post regularly to this thread.

The first piece of advice I'm going to give is this: STOP CARING ABOUT THE OUTCOMES OF INDIVIDUAL INTERACTIONS WITH SPECIFIC WOMEN because as an aspie guy you do not start out socially calibrated and will end up messing up hundreds of opportunities to get laid before actually becoming good at interacting with women. Getting frustrated at this process will not help you become good with women.

Also, if you don't want to dedicate a substantial amount of time to going out and interacting with women, stop reading now because this is a waste of your time. Go back to your internet porn and nights alone.

Anyway, I have an exam to study for so I'll leave you to think about whether you want to go down this rabbit hole and begin the journey towards massive success with women.

Hey, I'm not a complete failure, but I'd be more than happy to hear some of your advice. I've been single for about a month and I'm just taking time to think of a better game plan. There's a university full of women over here, I'll take any advice you give me.

You're implying that losing virginity and having sex is all I care about... if all I wanted was the physical, all that would make sense...

It's a good start

this comment brings me to the next nugget i will share with you:

it's easier to begin a relationship with a girl you've already been physical with than it is the other way around.

in order to spark attraction in a girl, you must have physical intent (whether sub communicated through body language or physically acted upon early on) from the moment you meet her.

if you have some sort of romantic fantasy that you will meet a girl, create an emotional connection and things will just "click," you've been watching too many movies. Sure you may meet a girl and create an amazing emotional connection but a physical relationship will not result... You will be classified as a friend because you didn't escalate when you were supposed to. The girl doesn't consciously think "oh he didn't escalate i guess i'm not attracted." it just flips a subconscious switch in her brain that makes her emotionally find you unsuitable as a mate but good as a friend.

That's why the whole "does she like me" is irrelevant. Humans are hardwired to be attracted to certain things. guys are wired to be attracted to physical beauty. Females actually get attracted based on the way a guy acts. If you aren't physically attractive but you act attractive, she'll find you attractive because she's wired to feel attraction based on your actions more than anything else. if you're physically attractive and you don't act dominant, she will lose attraction. girls actually can be attracted one moment and then not be attracted a minute later and actually can still become attracted again. guys are not really like this.

Interesting

Aww god, please no more of this! WP is groaning under the weight of 26,487 members, do we really need another "Here's what women *really* want" thread? Even it is from our esteemed and venerable founder

If your not careful, I'll start my own thread: "The Real Truth About Dating". And I recommend EVERYONE ELSE do the same.

Depends what you mean by 'success'. Preventing them getting their hands on your savings, stopping you from doing the things you enjoy, insisting you spend every holiday with her awful friends & family, making EVERY conversation into a discussion of her appearance, these are also measures of success.

What works for some, does not work for all (it sells books, though). The "Hardwiring" of our psychology is VERY controversial right now. Nobody really knows where the separation is between biological and cultural aspects of personality, scientists and pseudo-scientists are getting increasingly bitchy about it to each other. People have a wish to be told that there is some simple key that if only they knew, then "everything would be all right". In this state they suspend any semblance of critical analysis and clutch at the flimsiest of straws. Hence the never-ending popularity of the books.

If you look at the sales figures, there shouldn't be a single guy within 20 light years of planet earth....if the books actually worked.

Prostitutes would be a good place to start, then

<EDIT> Alex, in all seriousness, talking about "Amazing" success is missing the point for the typical AS male. Especially as unrealistic expectations seems to be am element of the problem with the younger men. Many of us would be delighted with "Even A Small" success and perhaps this would require less of a total personality replacement program?

What's with the negativity here? Alex is giving us advice based on first hand experience, what does any of that have to do with selling books?

Don't you think you're exaggerating a little about the bad parts of a relationship? I mean, sure you lose a little freedom, but if it's the right person it's worth it. Besides, flings and 1 night stands are there for a reason.

I suppose inversely, if you are physically attractive but act unattractively(head down, slumping shoulders, frowny face, no self-confidence,) you will be perceived as being unattractive. I am not very good looking in the face, but I have a rugged look about me that some girls find attractive. I have a massive muscular build and bench 450, but I carry myself in a way that suggests no self-esteem. Women don't really give a damn about how many pull-ups you do or how much you squat. Girls sometimes tell me that I am good-looking but I give off a vibe of self-loathing that offsets my positive external qualities.

My problem is that I just can't "lighten up" and be "fun." EVERYBODY I know has been telling me to "smile, its not so bad," since I was 3 but I am perpetually dolorous and dirgeful. I have a very strong, obsessive sense of personal discipline and self-denial and that carries over into other facets of my life. I don't know how to be spontaneous and "in the moment," and I take rejection or humiliation very personally and can dwell on things for years.

I am great at doing things that call for alot of long-term discipline and commitment and attention to detail, but I struggle with spontaneous and variable things that normal people can handle. I also have that problem that you mentioned earlier about not knowing the right time to "escalate" and missing the signals that let the girl know that:

A - she is interested in you, and
B - it is time to take things to the next step. A always miss out on those subtle clues and get consigned to the friend bin.

You can dictate information and advice all day long. I know a ton of book-learning and dating advice but the trouble for me is applying the information in actual, real life situations. I always "choke" at the moment of truth and back down timidly. I am a different person in public than I am in private. When I was 15, I knew more about sex and dating rituals than any of my peers(because I had AS and was shunned by girls, sex was all I thought about.)

And much to my intense dismay, why do you always see the hottest girls with disgustingly obese men, wormy little punkish boys, or "gangsta" blacks? Personality over looks.

Because this has surely been covered already..ad infinitum. A link to http://www.laddertheory.com/ is as good a synopsis as you'll ever need. It's for both men and women, too. (and answers your last question, Brusilov)

What *hasn't* been covered, to my knowledge, are strategies specific to those with AS. This would be a useful line of enquiry. Basicallty what Brusilov said, you can read the theory but if it just doesn't work in practice?

<EDIT> Apologies as I just noticed Alex's first piece of advice is aimed at AS men. Good advice, too! You could even simplify it to: "STOP CARING".


Divorce rate 50%, suicide, depression, domestic violence, children suffering, health problems, bankruptcy.. etc. No, I don't think I'm exaggerrating about the bad parts of relationships


Yes, the right person is hard to find, though. Many people (myself included) have adopted an "any relationship at all costs" approach. Perhaps because we believe that if we were not single our problems would all vanish. You read this all the time on WP, all over the place in fact. As someone whose experienced both, I think there's a strong argument that for those with AS, maintaining a relationship is much harder and stressful than being single.

Apologies for going off at a tangent, but as I said, it's the AS specific angle that is in short supply. And I'd start by asking myself sincerely: "Am I really ready for a relationship?".


I agree. The worst problems happen when you go beyond those, so why do it?

Last edited by ManErg on 12 May 2009, 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lol wow, you know it's becoming a new craze when even the founder of the website pitches in with their own quick methods to dating success.

I stick by my own "social ladder" post - take things in steps, focus on friendships before dating. That way you at least get part of the way there, rather than being perpetually stuck on square one because you try to somehow fly straight to the finishing line. Of course, this only applies to some people, not everyone (some people already have friendships down pact anyway), but for the people it does apply to I heavily recommend it, because it can really ease the loneliness.

I think that there is no one quick easy solution, but reading the advice of many different people is good because that way from the variety of information you can narrow it down and form your own "plan of attack" that will work for you specifically (because each person is in a unique position). I don't think that anyone's advice is 'wrong' persay, either.

I really don't want to fall back into the danger of overthinking the flirting/dating game. I am reminded of a quote from the movie "Bull Durham." "Baseball is a simple game; You hit the ball, you throw the ball, you catch the ball." Flirting is just a matter of getting out there, interacting with girls you meet and getting lucky with mabye 1 out of 30. Thinking about it too much will get you worried right out of the game. All of these "strategies" just go out of the window once you are actually in public and it is a matter of coming off as a viable boyfriend candidate. You can sit there and focus on every little thing you are doing wrong but the fact is that some decent girl out there will want you as a mate. All I do is go up, say hi, start a conversation, and hope for the best. Someday luck will be on my side.

I don't have time at this moment to read the whole "ladder theory" article but I understand what they are trying to say. I have the monetary, novel, and aloof aspects all down pat, but as I said earlier, I can't display these qualities in public because I am an inhibited person. If I try and "stop caring." I come off like a very serious person who is trying hard to act like he is not serious and the charade doesn't work at all.

I think that the core of my problem is just that I am way too conservative and very out of tune with the values and views of girls of my generation. I have very strong, archaic core values that are extremely incongruous with youth society today. When I was in school I was called, even by my teachers and parents as "little grandpa," or "little old man." Today, I have the social values and outlook on life of a 90 year old, which doesn't fly with the carefree liberalism of today's girls. I am different all right, but different in the wrong way.

By the way, I do not think that being in a relationship by itself would magically make me happy. I am the last person to adopt the "relationship at all costs" approach, and I won't settle. It is better to want something you don't have than have something that you don't want. I would certainly love to be in a relationsip if it was a healthy, balanced functional one, and that is what I am looking for, a compatible girl who I have fun with and I enjoy being around. I won't date the first b***h I meet who thinks that she can control me with sex, letting me lick her boots and bend to her every whim. Being single is much better than being some pathetic boyfriend making outrageous compromises for sex. For me, getting sex will not be a panacea. Certainly, I want sex and I have the sexual prowess of a 23 year old man, but I can not be manipulated with intimacy. Hopefully some girl will accept me for who I am and look past the fact that I am uninterested in having a fecund social-life and won't mind not going out on the town much. It would help my cause immeasurably if I had a bunch of guy friends who could help set me up on dates, but as I said earlier, I will not undertake a major personality overhaul. I won't begin to subordinate my personal interests to devote time to rampant socializing. Whoever I date will have to accept me as I come, even thus if it takes me longer to find such a person.

tip 3: be happy without a gf

Wow, so much high-handed, pithy information in your first two paragraphs, and then the best you can conjure up for tip 3 is, "Be happy without a gf." Not that I am trying to be critical, but mabye you don't have all the answers.

I would start my own "dating advice" thread, but I am not arrogant enough to call myself a dating expert. I am quite knowledgeable about psychology and sociology, amongst other things, but I won't run around telling others what to do until I have some consistent success myself. "Doctor, Heal thyself!"

What is a "dating expert" doing fabricating threads such as this instead of actually putting this wonder advice into practice? What can be said that we haven't already heard 1000 times over and over. Sounds like someone is on a desperate quest for approval.

Hey, I don't care to be a playboy, I just want one good solid relationship. This stuff should not be that hard.

If you have AS, you'll never be able to naturally flirt the way that the normies will, so really any specific advice is moot anyway. Your best hope is literally just to start a conversation with as many girls as possible. Hopefully one will like you and you'll trip and fall into a relationship. Seriously, any attempt to flirt "by the book" will just come off with you looking like you are trying to hard and you will fail. If you were able to apply all of the dating tactics assiduously and be gregarious enough to bag a bevy of girls, than you wouldn't even have AS. You can sit around all day and say, "How can i alter my personality or do something to make me attractive to girls?" The fact is that you can't change who you are and you just have to hold out for someone who will accept you with whom you are compatible. You won't even be happy anyway with a preppy NT girl who has unreasonable social and finacial expectations for you and expects you to conform to her whims.

Look, I don't want to give a bunch of high-handed advice. I am the last person who would ever try and tell anyone what to do, since I have been egregiously unsuccessful in my own dating life. The fact is that you can't really do any of the dating tips designed for the NTs; Just throw all of their rules out of the window. We don't function within their parameters and their social rules can not and don't apply to us. All we can really do is be ourselves and wait for the right match to come to us, even if it takes a little longer. I myself am willing to wait for the right girl, and I won't just settle for anybody.

By the way, even a girl who you think is gorgeous and hot when you first start dating her will seem unattractive when you discover that she has a sh***y and superficial personality. Once the lust phase is over, the compatiblity of personalities becomes the most important factor to determine if the relationship can survive. When the lusty sexual attraction goes, you have to actually like the person you are with for who she is. Also, homely girls who you might think are unattractive at first can begin to seem more and more attractive as you begin to learn about them and appreciate their personality.

i have had quite a lot of experience in bars because i used to eat my dinner at the tavern nearly every night.

i had no interest in looking for "love" or even friends. i just went to get dinner and i either did puzzles or my work while i waited (i always carry a brief case).

a lot of times, small groups of girls who had nowhere to sit (when all the tables were taken on trivia nights for example) would ask to sit at my table (because there were 3 empty chairs).

they would talk among themselves, and i would ignore them and concentrate on what i was doing, and soon they would become interested in what i was doing.
my manner is eccentric even when i try to be decorous, and it would most often catch their attention.
eg: i would need a paper and i would haul my briefcase up to the table and open it and put my head inside it almost to find what i wanted. when i could not, i used to unload heaps of things onto the table to empty my bag to search for what i wanted.

they would find things like that curious, and they usually introduced themselves to me and asked what i was doing.

i would gladly rattle off what i was attending to, and they used to shriek with laughter at first because they thought i was putting on a humorous act with my voice and manner. they thought i was joking.
i would stop talking and return to what i was doing, and they most often quietened down and then became more interested. they would say things like "sorry!! i really am interested. please keep talking?"
they used to try to follow what i was saying, but there would usually be only one who was still interested after 5 mins.

sometimes what i was doing was something they liked. for example, if i was thinking of a song and writing notes down, they may see it and say

one of them: are you a musician?
me: no
one of them (same one from now on): why are you writing notes down?
me: because i'm going to play them when i get home.
o-o-t: what on?
me: a synthesizer.
o-o-t: i thought you said you weren't a musician?
me: i'm not. i don't make a living from music. i just like to play it for myself.
o-o-t: why?
me: because it's like a puzzle or something. a soothing one.
o-o-t: wow... i'd like to hear it sometime.

anyway that was a generic example.

then i would finish my meal and pack up and go, and normally, the one that was interested would say she was glad to meet me and i would say that back to her ("you too")

the same girls usually appeared the next week, and the one that was interested would be the only one who came to sit with me, but this time there were other tables available. she would want to know more and ask if she could have her drinks at my table while i was there. i would say "yes".
i did not say "yes" because of any other reason than i enjoyed her conversation last time. then she would invariably ask to come to my place when i went home.

example of transcript--

me: well i must be off. good speaking to you.
her: err... where are you going?
me: home. i must feed the possums and i have lots of stuff to do.
her: it sounds so cool.
me: oh well. maybe i will see you again.
her: do you think maybe i could come to your place for a little while tonight? i mean...i wouldn't stay long. i'd just love to see your possums and have a listen to some music for an hour or so.
me: (looking at my watch) well ok. but only for an hour or so. how will you get home?.............etc

then they would get here and seem to settle well and i would narrate what everything does (gadget wise) and we would go and meet the possums etc.
the girl would usually bring a six pack of bourbon and coke or something with her, so the girl usually got drunk and then sensual etc.

i am not talking about a particular girl. i am talking about 5-6 girls i have known over the last 3 years who i have known this way. i am using generic examples to show the common thread in them.

so after they come around about 3 times (over a period of about 2 weeks), they usually got drunk (girls at bars and taverns are prone to drink (which makes them nicer to be with in one way sometimes)).
i showed no interest in them sexually and they got more and more horny until they were making excuses to get their clothes off.

one girl called lauren said she learned naked belly dancing, and she wanted to dance to me playing the piano with see through veils and then cast them off (it was summer and she was tipsy).
i said "sure" and she did, but my focus was on the keyboard and the notes i was playing. i did not look at her dance.

all these various girls were my friend at different points of time, and it usually took them 4-6 months to realize i was not going to make love to them.
i just was never interested because they seemed to be desperate or something in a way.
i did "play" a bit with them when they got really angry and said i "never cared about that need" in them. they guided me but i did not feel what they wanted me to feel.

girls need a "man" to fulfill not just their mental interests, and need for comedic relief etc, they need a "man" to fulfill another need that they have, which is to be "lusted after".

not an underhanded lecherous lust, or a perverted lust, but a sexual adoration and euphoric attitude about their physical sexuality by another person.

i could not fulfill that need. i have not much interest in fiddling with giblets when i could be playing with creating stuff that is occurring to me.

----------------------------------------------------
i have a male "friend" (well he is a long term associate who i eternally neglect to eject from my life) who is very lustful of women.

he sees himself as "full of love that is pure and true for the woman of his dreams".
he never had a girlfriend. he is good looking. he is tall and blonde and blue eyed and bronze skinned, although he is exhibiting male pattern baldness from excess testosterone.
he is always sexually "at attention", and when he sees a girl on the street he describes her is such lustful ways.
he is very intelligent and articulate and is not a "jock" in any way.
he is super intense and his idol is jimi hendrix from when he was little, and he thinks of himself as a spiritual entity on par with hendrix (sans the musical ability (he he he)).

he is "love starved".

he sees some girl in his environment that gives him a glance. maybe she will briefly look in his eye in a mcdonalds queue for example.
he will develop many scenarios in his head about how she "saw a vision in his soul that she fell in love with".
he would go on to think "she was too shy to admit it because it would look crazy for her to do so. so she left. i must track her down and meet her again".
he will describe to me that she had the clearest skin, and the most piercing blue eyes, and her legs were to die for.
inevitably, he does re encounter her, and he is met with hostility when he tries to "meet " her. (gawd)

then he comes to me, and he is angry and he says "if only she knew how much tender love i could give her".
i say "well she is obviously not interested so there you go"
he gets angrier and eventually leaves because i provide him with no solace.

after a while (maybe a week), i hear he had gotten himself into trouble and he has a new AVO against him taken out by his potential "fair maiden".

----------------------------

he is mystified how i can have girls running around naked in my house wanting attention when i am not interested in having them, while he has nothing and he wants nothing more than to give them attention.

i would gladly give that part to him if i could.
he has come around when whichever girl has been here, and i have seen their reaction to him.
he knows i have said before to him "she want's me to do it to her and i do not want to", and he has thought "excellent! she'll go for me right away. i mean if she goes for mark, she'll go beserk for me".

it never happens. they always sense some sort of wanting or something in him that makes all he says seem like a line to get in to their pants.
they always think he is a creep.

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the irony is, that i get girls easily to come to my place because they are interested in me being so interested in my own world, and because they sense deep inside that i am not interested in their physicality, and they find that refreshing. they know i like them for who they are, and not as a sexual identity.

they are used to boys with raging hormones and they are sick of them.

they come with me to my place for a break, and then they get turned on, and my lack of focus on them makes them hornier. maybe they feel that i am re-tarded and can not see how beserk they go. maybe that makes them more comfortable and less inhibited. who knows.
they can not get filled by me in any meaningful way, but they could be filled by my "friend".



but my "friend" who can give them what they want, "wants" to give them what they want. they do not want anyone who "wants" to give them what they want, to give them what they want.
they want those who do not want to give them what they want to give it to them.

how cute.

but the moral is you always have too much of what you do not need (which is why you do not need it).
and you never can get what you sorely need (which is why you need it).

i do not need anything except what i can provide myself.
maybe that is one subconscious thing that made those 5-6 girls feel happy to imagine adopting as their own outlook on life.

i stopped eating at the tavern about 1 year ago because the staff changed and the meals deteriorated severely.

sorry this is so long. i have trouble finishing topics i am talking about.

How about an approach from a totally different angle? It's interesting to look at facts, rather than opinions. One stat I'm curious to know is the exact number of single people of each sex according to age. No luck finding anything comprehensive, but the only concrete figure I've tracked down is ....illuminating, if a little disturbing.

In 2004, there were 1.65 million single males, aged 30 - 40 in the UK and 1.27 single females in the same age range. It would be good to know what happens in other age ranges, but that figure alone suggests that men in general have a problem beyond any personal failings: there are nowhere enough single women to go round!! ! Around 1 in 4 men in that age range is going to be single, whatever. Surely that is of some significance?

This backs up my personal observation, in that in work and life in general, there are so clearly many more single men than single women. ...and you can sure be I *notice* single women However, so do all the other masses of single men..

The thing with relationships is that they are not awarded like an exam where a whole class can pass. It's more like an exam where only the top 2/3 pass regardless of how well everyone does. It is a competition for a scarce resource. If every single man improved his social skills, became more attractive, there would still be more or less the SAME number of single men. A 100% success rate is just not possible....short of a war adjusting the current trends.


I've never heard them called that, before

Actually, b9, that was an excellent post. It sums up what a strange, unpredictable chaos this is for most of us. There is no foolproof set of techniques - there are always new fools - people like to impose a sense of order and control where there is none. Some have lots of success at being attractive, yet are clueless as to what it is they are doing. Others have no success at being attractive and are equally clueless. There seems to be nothing obvious. Sometimes it feels like the script is being written elsewhere and when it happens, it is so easy and natural, I can't understand why I found it so difficult before. And other times, there is effort, struggle to do everything right and nothing happens at all. Not in the script.

Last edited by ManErg on 12 May 2009, 9:16 am, edited 2 times in total.