something extremely shallow that's bothering me

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So as some of you might remember, I went on a couple dates with this one girl (the girl I asked to go out for coffee via facebook, lol). I figured this would be so much easier, because while this girl was kind of cute, she was also chubby. What's destroying me is that I basically did end up getting rejected by a fat chick after the first date. All the "signs" of some sort of attraction were there (why the hell would you talk to a random person so intently, laugh at all their stupid non-humor, and generally flirt pretty hard with them). Then after the first date, you indicate that you intend for this movie going to be a date (implying that you don't really want her to bring her friend) and she says she's currently not looking for a relationship (she forgot to add in "with you" at the end of that most likely). Why the hell would you go on a date with someone in the first place if you weren't looking for a relationship. Then, even after she rejects me, she has the audacity to still want to keep talking to me and b***h about her problems. Effff that. I mean, what the hell, does she realize how awkward and emasculating that is? It's like, "here, I basically see you as someone to dump all my emotional baggage on because you're good at listening." I've pretty much stopped initiating conversations with her, and increased the level of sarcasm to basically 'go away' levels. I think she gets the idea, but man, I don't like doing that kind of thing because I'm honestly not an as*hole.

This whole thing basically destroyed me because I thought it was risk free and most of the signs of some sort of attraction were there. Furthermore, it does seem like she was trying to hook me up with her obese friend (what the hell, man, that is some kind of implicit insult). Do I need to change my taste in women and not even be remotely attracted to the girls I date in any way whatsoever anymore? I feel very shallow for thinking this, but I can't help it. Perhaps being a somewhat introverted nerd is the male analogue of female corpulence.

Here's the other thread I was referring to: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt97919.html (you don't need to read it, as I pretty much covered it all here, but just in case anybody wants to see it)

I have more female friends than male ones, can't get a date for the life of me. I've had one relationship, and it was more or less fictional, I'll probably write that story up here sometime. Strange thing is, tons of women I know come to me for relationship advice, and generally take what I'm saying as word of God. Which is fairly amusing given my lack of experience, but I do my best.

<- Emotional Baggage Wagon, toss it on, watch it go.


Iunno, I never understood the whole initialization of dating procedure. I'm fairly certain I could manage the ongoing part of a relationship, but that 'start' part I never got. Relationship cues are very very subtle... or so insanely in your face you aren't interested.

On the off chance that she was interested in you, may I point out that you sank your boat in the first sentence...

I'm sorry this happened to you in this case. Try not to let it get you down.

To file away for the next opportunity:

In my experience, girls that "weren't sure" about me would often bring a friend along on a second date. This is a safety net for them and also allows them to get a second opinion about you. It is a red flag if you refuse this idea or protest too strongly. As evidence of this, you'll notice that the "friend" comment didn't come until after this event. For next time, your answer is "Sure, if Cassie really wants to see Star Trek, it would be great to have her along". Grit your teeth and bear it. You may discover that a) you have a good time because your date is more relaxed, b) your date likes that you are accepting of her suggestions, or even c) Cassie is the one who likes you! Also a second date of a movie could be a little too soon when first date was a coffee house. A movie is a darker, more intimate setting which could also have made her nervous. For next time, think about lunch. And remember, there's no need to rush or be pushy about anything.

Most of all DO NOT GIVE UP.

Girls like: Confidence, assertiveness, and "accepting" guys. Go along with what they want to do. Remember, they're not the ones with the social struggles you're facing so if they suggest it, it's probably something you should trust and go along with!
Girls dislike: Obsession, aggression, and pushy guys. If you know you have negative behaviors, hide this on dates and reveal yourself slowly -- a little bit at a time. This is what NT people do on dates too! Put your best face on.

I'm crushing on John. He saved me a lot of typing.

With regards to the OP, I just kept shaking my head while I was reading it.

I gotta take the OP's side on this. I've seen far too many fat women who esteem themselves too highly. Was it shallow by the OP? Sure. Is that wrong? Not necessarily. I've met a lot of fat women who were very aggressive and bossy in terms of relationship stuff, been sexually harassed by them at work, and generally noticed that they are more pushy than a lot of their thin counterparts. The excess weight could very well be a sign of an overly self-indulgent person without a lot of impulse control.

Roadgames -- how old are you and her? I'm trying to get a gauge on what stage of the relationship and gender politics game you are in. Rest assured the power balance shifts later on. Also, in general, it's not a great idea to go on a date with someone you're not too into, even if you are desperate or bored. They will sense you are not that interested, and if it goes the other way, you could end up stuck with them, like someone I know.

You did the right thing by not letting this girl use you as a friend afterward, if that wasn't what you wanted. This is one thing that some women do -- reject you as a lover, but try to use you for the platonic side of male attention, to monopolize your time with their problems and issues while the guy hangs on to the hope that someday it might be something more. Basically, it emasculates the man and doesn't treat him with the dignity he deserves, and is a quite common situation for young or inexperienced guys. I know it happened to me a few times, and the worst part is that this very selfish behavior from those women also ruins your chances of getting a real GF by scaring away other women -- they assume something is going on, and that you are already taken. Sometimes the "friend" is quite nasty and direct about getting rid of emotional competition. Good on you for breaking up that situation right away -- don't let anyone waste your time, and be more choosy with your next date. I think you aimed low -- aim high! Go for what you really want.

And before everyone jumps on me -- there are some beautiful large women, and I can think of at least one I work with (2 actually) who I would date and have a relationship with. However, there are also a lot of unattractive and pushy heavy women whose weight is reflective of their general lack of awareness of themselves, their impact on others, and their inability to exercise self-control and discipline. Most men don't like dating women who are bigger than they are -- it's called sexual dimorphism for a reason

I'll take the OP's side too. I got your back Bill...
OP - aim high...

There are studs and there are muffins - the stud-muffin is a mythical creature.

If you are a muffin, you are not getting laid and you get to hear all about the problems she is having with the guy she is sleeping with.

If you are the stud, you get laid and complained about...

Thanks for the responses here, folks. As you might've guessed, I am fairly inexperienced with dating. For the guy who asked, the girl was 20 and I'm 22..

JohnHopkins,

1. Yes, the shallow person in the title I'm referring to is myself. I could elaborate as to why if you'd like, but it's complicated.
2. Random dude you barely know asks you out for coffee. How is that not a date? Perhaps I needed to be more explicit "oh hi, would you like to ~go out~ for coffee with me ~as a date~ sometime?" That sounds lol, though. She even said she was getting that vibe from me (i.e. that I intended for it to be a date).
3. If I valued her friendship a lot, I wouldn't have told her I intended for the second thing to be a date. Yes, I think she's a neat person, honestly. How can you be platonic friends with someone you're kind of attracted to, though?
4. In retrospect, I can see how it would've been a good idea to remain friends with her if only so she'd introduce to me some more of her friends. Given that her friends would most likely know the history of how I came to know her (that guy she rejected), I imagine that if I were to pay attention to her debbie downerisms (that's not how she was before I made my intentions obvious), she would introduce me to all of her friends as some kind of doormat or Really Nice Guy. I'm not a doormat, eff that. I never have been, and never will be.
5. I'm a dude, I can't help not being attracted to corpulent women. I honestly care about personality a lot, but corpulence negates it. As for the first part of the quote, I have been told by reasonable NT friends over and over that chubby chicks are easier for f*****g obvious reasons.
6. To be rejected by a chubby chick means that I'm broken in some way. Even more so, to have that same girl try to hook you up with her obese friend means that she sees you as pathetic enough to want to date an obese girl.
So, I either need to start accepting that I'm some sort of hideous monster worthy of corpulent chicks or put a lot of muscle weight on my nerd frame and work on some interpersonal factors. I'll most likely opt for the latter, which is something I've basically neglected for the last two years or so. Instead, I've worked more on being more social and comfortable around women.

I don't know. Sorry if I came off as angry, entitled, or anything like that. I really see this whole thing as more of a critique of myself rather than that girl, or girls in general. I most likely didn't make my intentions obvious enough from the onset, but random friendliness from a stranger and flirting does seem to be indicative enough to me. I don't approach women operating under the assumption that they also have an ASD.

Here's the thing you don't seem to grasp. You constantly bring up the fact that she's chubby. Who the hell cares? She's not less worthy just because she's not skinny. She doesn't need a pity date because she's overweight. She's not an easier lay because she's packed on a few pounds. That kind of attitude pisses me off to no end. You should be looking at her as a person, not the size of clothes that she wears.

I have a friend who is a plus size girl. She's gorgeous. She's a riot to be around and her husband is built like a god. The guy is seriously, seriously, hot. My friend, she can hold her own. He likes his girls with curves and they're both very, very happy together.

Start looking for a woman for her personality. Yes physical chemistry comes into play, but the overweight women in the world don't need a pity party from guys thinking that they can't get a date because they're not supermodel thin.

*steps off her soapbox*

It's not shallow to have standards.

I like a girl to have a bit of meat on her, but obese is just not trying.

Would you go out with someone who skipped showers and didn't use deodorant?