28 Feb 2015, 4:43 pm
LyraLuthTinu (me) said:
Quote:
...It might be--and this might sound harsh, but I'm Aspie too so I'm not sure how to say this tactfully--that he does want a relationship with you but you are making him work at it too hard by interpreting everything he does according to NT relational norms. Relationships are difficult without autism getting in the way. It may be that he really wants and needs a friend, and he thinks you're the closest thing to a true friend he's got right now, but he can tell he's putting you off by acting in ways other than what you expect.
.
.
And it takes a lot of effort for an Aspie--especially a depressed, introverted Aspie--to "act normal" according to the NT relational conventions.
...
He likely doesn't know what you expect from him and doesn't want to be slapped down when he doesn't perform up to your standards of NT behavior. Above all else, friendship between an Aspie and an NT requires patience and understanding.
.
.
And it takes a lot of effort for an Aspie--especially a depressed, introverted Aspie--to "act normal" according to the NT relational conventions.
...
He likely doesn't know what you expect from him and doesn't want to be slapped down when he doesn't perform up to your standards of NT behavior. Above all else, friendship between an Aspie and an NT requires patience and understanding.
Hebe replied:
Quote:
How would I be making him work too hard? I get the fact that people with Asperger's have a hard time communicating with other people I accept that. He asked me to come to his state I told him I would and he said ok. That was about two weeks ago then when I asked him was there a reason why he wanted to meet me. He tells me that he's not interested in meeting me? What am I suppose to think about that? Isn't that sending mixed signals and being toyed with? He's not interested in meeting me yet he called me just to say hi? If that's not playing a game then I don't know what is.
By "making him work too hard," I mean that you may have expectations of how he will respond to what you say and do, and he is responding differently from what you expect. I go through this all the time; nt people expect me to act one way, I act in a completely different way and they get upset and think I am being rude or playing games or just trying to freak them out or manipulate them.
I think he is telling you the truth about how he feels in the isolated moment when you ask him. It's harder for an Aspie to see the big picture of a relationship than it is to see how what you are saying and doing right now impacts his or her stream of consciousness in the present. This means that one day he really might want to see you, want you to make this trip to come see him, but the next time you ask him, he is in a completely different place in his own head and doesn't want to see anyone. (first time through I kind of missed that this was a long-distance relationship, rather than someone you see on a daily or weekly basis.)
Of course, you are looking at the whole relationship, not seeing the immediate context of him being not interested in a face-to-face meeting. That moment of do-not-want might be just that--a momentary thing. He's not interested in a face-to-face meeting right now, because he's focused on his special interest right then and due to autism is not interested in anything else, including and especially social interaction with a neurotypical person. Social interaction at that moment would distract from the special interest.
A neurotypical friend who expects eye contact, non-verbal communication, theory-of-mind and all the rest of the unspoken rules of neurotypical social interaction would be difficult to cope with. Things that go without saying between neurotypical friends, things that Aspies are simply not aware of unless they have been made aware of them by a neurotypical mentor who has taught them good manners and neurotypical mannerisms, would stretch his capacity to socialize because it takes constant vigilance to do it right according to fluctuating, incomprehensible unspoken rules.
Catch him in another moment, when he's feeling lonely or disconnected or occupied with something he'd rather not have to do, and he might say he does want to see you--because at that moment he is thinking about how good it would be to have a compassionate friend.
When I said I'm Aspie too, so I am not really sure how to express myself tactfully, this is the kind of thing I was talking about.
Hebe wrote:
Well that's common sense I think we all know that being friends takes both people who respect each other. I do agree with some of the things LyraLuthTinu said.
Respect. It's one of those things that neurotypical people seem to have an innate understanding of, especially NT males. But I personally do not understand it, no-one has ever given me a definition of it around which I can wrap my warped, autistic mind, and if you ask the people who know me irl, the females will say I do all right, but the males who are older than myself. . . don't seem to think so.
Sometimes it seems to mean letting a guy think that he's right, even when he's wrong, just because it is impossible that an autistic female could possibly know anything of value that a neurotypical male doesn't already know.
Even if he knows she's right and he's wrong, she damn well better not say so because it's just so disrespectful for a female to tell a male that he's mistaken or misinformed. :shrug
Anyway, Waterfalls said:
Quote:
I don't agree. I think it's really best to assume when someone talks about suicide that they are in pain, and I also think it's a mistake to tell yourself he's only after attention as a reason to go.
and:
Quote:
To me, I think sometimes all it takes is one person one moment of showing concern, feeling and expressing love or compassion, treating a suicidal person like.....a person may save their life. Has that not been your experience?
This really resonates with me. I read a very short time ago that a survey of suicide attempt survivors showed that many of them would have reconsidered their intent to suicide if just one person had noticed that there was a human being in need of compassion standing in their midst.
I may be wrong, but I think that most Aspies lack the theory of mind to be manipulative in this way. I'm not saying you should play into his games or reward his bad behavior, if you think he is behaving badly or playing games. I do think you should remember that he is on the autism spectrum, and your first impression of his behavior needs to be reconsidered in light of Asperger's.
In respect to your making a long trip just to see him, I don't think I myself would even consider it. Maybe you can just fly from one place to another on a lark or on a mission of mercy, but I don't have the funds or the freedom to do such things. The dynamics of a friendship are completely different if you're in one geographic location and he's in another and your contact heretofore has been only online or on cellphones, as compared to both of you living in the same town and running across eachother's paths on a regular basis. If you only interact with him electronically, you truly know nothing for certain about him and he might not even be austistic, male, or of the age he's claimed. He might even be a psychopathic octogenarian lady trolling young people for laughs.
In order to successfully manipulate people, you have to be able to predict how they will behave and respond to you with a good degree of accuracy. The autistic lack of theory-of-mind means that unless we have deliberately studied neurotypical social behavior, we can't make those accurate predictions.
It could be that, being an Aspie, his concept of respect is as fuzzy and full of holes as mine is.
He may very well be treating you as he wants to be treated by you, but you don't appreciated it because the way you want to be treated is in fact different from the way he wants to be treated. And vice-versa.
28 Feb 2015, 5:40 pm
Yes I can understand why he wouldn't want to meet me I'll just leave that alone. If he eventually does then it's fine I won't pressure him about it or ask him any questions. I'll just be there for him if he needs me I was upset with him a few days ago. I'm trying to be more patient and understanding I just have to remember to not get upset when he says certain things I don't like. I do like him but I don't want a romantic relationship with him.
LyraLuthTinu wrote:
LyraLuthTinu (me) said:
Hebe replied:
By "making him work too hard," I mean that you may have expectations of how he will respond to what you say and do, and he is responding differently from what you expect. I go through this all the time; nt people expect me to act one way, I act in a completely different way and they get upset and think I am being rude or playing games or just trying to freak them out or manipulate them.
I think he is telling you the truth about how he feels in the isolated moment when you ask him. It's harder for an Aspie to see the big picture of a relationship than it is to see how what you are saying and doing right now impacts his or her stream of consciousness in the present. This means that one day he really might want to see you, want you to make this trip to come see him, but the next time you ask him, he is in a completely different place in his own head and doesn't want to see anyone. (first time through I kind of missed that this was a long-distance relationship, rather than someone you see on a daily or weekly basis.)
Of course, you are looking at the whole relationship, not seeing the immediate context of him being not interested in a face-to-face meeting. That moment of do-not-want might be just that--a momentary thing. He's not interested in a face-to-face meeting right now, because he's focused on his special interest right then and due to autism is not interested in anything else, including and especially social interaction with a neurotypical person. Social interaction at that moment would distract from the special interest.
A neurotypical friend who expects eye contact, non-verbal communication, theory-of-mind and all the rest of the unspoken rules of neurotypical social interaction would be difficult to cope with. Things that go without saying between neurotypical friends, things that Aspies are simply not aware of unless they have been made aware of them by a neurotypical mentor who has taught them good manners and neurotypical mannerisms, would stretch his capacity to socialize because it takes constant vigilance to do it right according to fluctuating, incomprehensible unspoken rules.
Catch him in another moment, when he's feeling lonely or disconnected or occupied with something he'd rather not have to do, and he might say he does want to see you--because at that moment he is thinking about how good it would be to have a compassionate friend.
When I said I'm Aspie too, so I am not really sure how to express myself tactfully, this is the kind of thing I was talking about.
Respect. It's one of those things that neurotypical people seem to have an innate understanding of, especially NT males. But I personally do not understand it, no-one has ever given me a definition of it around which I can wrap my warped, autistic mind, and if you ask the people who know me irl, the females will say I do all right, but the males who are older than myself. . . don't seem to think so.
Sometimes it seems to mean letting a guy think that he's right, even when he's wrong, just because it is impossible that an autistic female could possibly know anything of value that a neurotypical male doesn't already know.
Even if he knows she's right and he's wrong, she damn well better not say so because it's just so disrespectful for a female to tell a male that he's mistaken or misinformed. :shrug
Anyway, Waterfalls said:
and:
This really resonates with me. I read a very short time ago that a survey of suicide attempt survivors showed that many of them would have reconsidered their intent to suicide if just one person had noticed that there was a human being in need of compassion standing in their midst.
I may be wrong, but I think that most Aspies lack the theory of mind to be manipulative in this way. I'm not saying you should play into his games or reward his bad behavior, if you think he is behaving badly or playing games. I do think you should remember that he is on the autism spectrum, and your first impression of his behavior needs to be reconsidered in light of Asperger's.
In respect to your making a long trip just to see him, I don't think I myself would even consider it. Maybe you can just fly from one place to another on a lark or on a mission of mercy, but I don't have the funds or the freedom to do such things. The dynamics of a friendship are completely different if you're in one geographic location and he's in another and your contact heretofore has been only online or on cellphones, as compared to both of you living in the same town and running across eachother's paths on a regular basis. If you only interact with him electronically, you truly know nothing for certain about him and he might not even be austistic, male, or of the age he's claimed. He might even be a psychopathic octogenarian lady trolling young people for laughs.
In order to successfully manipulate people, you have to be able to predict how they will behave and respond to you with a good degree of accuracy. The autistic lack of theory-of-mind means that unless we have deliberately studied neurotypical social behavior, we can't make those accurate predictions.
It could be that, being an Aspie, his concept of respect is as fuzzy and full of holes as mine is. He may very well be treating you as he wants to be treated by you, but you don't appreciated it because the way you want to be treated is in fact different from the way he wants to be treated. And vice-versa.
Quote:
...It might be--and this might sound harsh, but I'm Aspie too so I'm not sure how to say this tactfully--that he does want a relationship with you but you are making him work at it too hard by interpreting everything he does according to NT relational norms. Relationships are difficult without autism getting in the way. It may be that he really wants and needs a friend, and he thinks you're the closest thing to a true friend he's got right now, but he can tell he's putting you off by acting in ways other than what you expect.
.
.
And it takes a lot of effort for an Aspie--especially a depressed, introverted Aspie--to "act normal" according to the NT relational conventions.
...
He likely doesn't know what you expect from him and doesn't want to be slapped down when he doesn't perform up to your standards of NT behavior. Above all else, friendship between an Aspie and an NT requires patience and understanding.
.
.
And it takes a lot of effort for an Aspie--especially a depressed, introverted Aspie--to "act normal" according to the NT relational conventions.
...
He likely doesn't know what you expect from him and doesn't want to be slapped down when he doesn't perform up to your standards of NT behavior. Above all else, friendship between an Aspie and an NT requires patience and understanding.
Hebe replied:
Quote:
How would I be making him work too hard? I get the fact that people with Asperger's have a hard time communicating with other people I accept that. He asked me to come to his state I told him I would and he said ok. That was about two weeks ago then when I asked him was there a reason why he wanted to meet me. He tells me that he's not interested in meeting me? What am I suppose to think about that? Isn't that sending mixed signals and being toyed with? He's not interested in meeting me yet he called me just to say hi? If that's not playing a game then I don't know what is.
By "making him work too hard," I mean that you may have expectations of how he will respond to what you say and do, and he is responding differently from what you expect. I go through this all the time; nt people expect me to act one way, I act in a completely different way and they get upset and think I am being rude or playing games or just trying to freak them out or manipulate them.
I think he is telling you the truth about how he feels in the isolated moment when you ask him. It's harder for an Aspie to see the big picture of a relationship than it is to see how what you are saying and doing right now impacts his or her stream of consciousness in the present. This means that one day he really might want to see you, want you to make this trip to come see him, but the next time you ask him, he is in a completely different place in his own head and doesn't want to see anyone. (first time through I kind of missed that this was a long-distance relationship, rather than someone you see on a daily or weekly basis.)
Of course, you are looking at the whole relationship, not seeing the immediate context of him being not interested in a face-to-face meeting. That moment of do-not-want might be just that--a momentary thing. He's not interested in a face-to-face meeting right now, because he's focused on his special interest right then and due to autism is not interested in anything else, including and especially social interaction with a neurotypical person. Social interaction at that moment would distract from the special interest.
A neurotypical friend who expects eye contact, non-verbal communication, theory-of-mind and all the rest of the unspoken rules of neurotypical social interaction would be difficult to cope with. Things that go without saying between neurotypical friends, things that Aspies are simply not aware of unless they have been made aware of them by a neurotypical mentor who has taught them good manners and neurotypical mannerisms, would stretch his capacity to socialize because it takes constant vigilance to do it right according to fluctuating, incomprehensible unspoken rules.
Catch him in another moment, when he's feeling lonely or disconnected or occupied with something he'd rather not have to do, and he might say he does want to see you--because at that moment he is thinking about how good it would be to have a compassionate friend.
When I said I'm Aspie too, so I am not really sure how to express myself tactfully, this is the kind of thing I was talking about.
Hebe wrote:
Well that's common sense I think we all know that being friends takes both people who respect each other. I do agree with some of the things LyraLuthTinu said.
Respect. It's one of those things that neurotypical people seem to have an innate understanding of, especially NT males. But I personally do not understand it, no-one has ever given me a definition of it around which I can wrap my warped, autistic mind, and if you ask the people who know me irl, the females will say I do all right, but the males who are older than myself. . . don't seem to think so.
Sometimes it seems to mean letting a guy think that he's right, even when he's wrong, just because it is impossible that an autistic female could possibly know anything of value that a neurotypical male doesn't already know.
Even if he knows she's right and he's wrong, she damn well better not say so because it's just so disrespectful for a female to tell a male that he's mistaken or misinformed. :shrug
Anyway, Waterfalls said:
Quote:
I don't agree. I think it's really best to assume when someone talks about suicide that they are in pain, and I also think it's a mistake to tell yourself he's only after attention as a reason to go.
and:
Quote:
To me, I think sometimes all it takes is one person one moment of showing concern, feeling and expressing love or compassion, treating a suicidal person like.....a person may save their life. Has that not been your experience?
This really resonates with me. I read a very short time ago that a survey of suicide attempt survivors showed that many of them would have reconsidered their intent to suicide if just one person had noticed that there was a human being in need of compassion standing in their midst.
I may be wrong, but I think that most Aspies lack the theory of mind to be manipulative in this way. I'm not saying you should play into his games or reward his bad behavior, if you think he is behaving badly or playing games. I do think you should remember that he is on the autism spectrum, and your first impression of his behavior needs to be reconsidered in light of Asperger's.
In respect to your making a long trip just to see him, I don't think I myself would even consider it. Maybe you can just fly from one place to another on a lark or on a mission of mercy, but I don't have the funds or the freedom to do such things. The dynamics of a friendship are completely different if you're in one geographic location and he's in another and your contact heretofore has been only online or on cellphones, as compared to both of you living in the same town and running across eachother's paths on a regular basis. If you only interact with him electronically, you truly know nothing for certain about him and he might not even be austistic, male, or of the age he's claimed. He might even be a psychopathic octogenarian lady trolling young people for laughs.
In order to successfully manipulate people, you have to be able to predict how they will behave and respond to you with a good degree of accuracy. The autistic lack of theory-of-mind means that unless we have deliberately studied neurotypical social behavior, we can't make those accurate predictions.
It could be that, being an Aspie, his concept of respect is as fuzzy and full of holes as mine is.
He may very well be treating you as he wants to be treated by you, but you don't appreciated it because the way you want to be treated is in fact different from the way he wants to be treated. And vice-versa.28 Feb 2015, 5:59 pm
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