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Anna
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15 Jul 2006, 1:27 pm

AaronAgassi wrote:
Why Anna, how brave of you to jest so over your own confusion and trepidation.


Actually it was reminding me of an old movie, called tapeheads where the producer kept calling for more T&A referring to it as "production values".



juliekitty
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15 Jul 2006, 3:59 pm

k96822 wrote:
I'm way more upset about this than I should be. I'm getting deeply upset about this because it is something that everyone else seems to understand that I just don't get.


What you're basically saying is that you're getting deeply upset because you're aspie. I can understand that, but it's not really going to get you very far.

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the things I do "wrong" are always a function of some flaw with the person I'm interacting with.


Yes. And the "flaw" is that they are NT.

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That is a negative on /their/ part, not mine, yet /my/ behavior is the incorrect one.


Regardless of whose behaviour is technically "incorrect" - and keep in mind, this is a matter of opinion - your behaviour is going to be perceived that way. The reason is that NTs are in the majority, and you are of the minority.

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should I just do what my instincts tell me and drop it, go home, continue to make stuff (but not for them) and elevate aforementioned finger toward society in general? :x


I would suggest going home, continuing to make stuff, and then offering it to society according to their rules.

As far as what those rules are, you'll have to ask someone else. I'm not so great at that part myself!



AaronAgassi
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15 Jul 2006, 5:39 pm

Anna wrote:
AaronAgassi wrote:
Why Anna, how brave of you to jest so over your own confusion and trepidation.


Actually it was reminding me of an old movie, called tapeheads where the producer kept calling for more T&A referring to it as "production values".

That's what I get for being clever, a straight answer!


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AaronAgassi
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15 Jul 2006, 5:45 pm

Enthusiasm is good. They where being jerks! Your uncomprehending amazement with their discourtesy not withstanding, their priorities are in primate politics to the exclusion of values and practicality. Likely, their organization is doomed. Bring your enthusiasm to http://www.FoolQuest.com !



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17 Jul 2006, 12:58 am

Solidess wrote:
I guess I can see how it works from both sides. But I was on the other end of this type of event first, and I can definitely understand why I got mad at this person.

I was (am) working on this fangame right, doing the character design/artwork. I was the only artist for ALL of the character art, but, it proved to be too overwhelming for me and my lack of focus and attention on it meant I wasn't getting any art done for long periods at a time. Well, sure enough this 'new' artist comes along, wanting to be part of the game. And seeing as how I wasn't really up to the task anymore, my friend/boss was asking if I'm going to get cracking on this work, or should this new guy replace me? Well, we talked it all out and he wasn't making any decisions yet, just warning me that he wants to get this game finished this year, cause we are becoming a laughing stock, and there is this opportunity for a new artist now, if I wanted to quit.

Well, before I even had made my decision (this was a very painful and stressful decision for me because it means alot to me to get my work shown to the world, and could get me going on opportunities in the game industry and whatnot), this guy was sending art to my friend! He was sending it, even THOUGH my friend didn't ASK him for anything, this guy just, because he felt like it, he would send art to my friend, character after character, a few examples of his work. And it wasn't in sketch format like mine was, it was FINISHED. Coloured, shaded, complete with effects in the background and a stylish font for the character name and the whole SHABANG. the guy did that in less than a DAY! Where as my art takes weeks to complete and its not the finished product!

He was pissing me off.... OOOH, I couldn't describe it, how much I hated that frikken show off, had no respect for me what so ever, wasn't even ASKED to draw up any art or examples, just does it, does it finished, perfect, and QUICKLY, and I was steaming.... He was trying to make me look like a mockery or what! I didn't know, but I didn't like it all, and I don't know why he wouldn't just BACK OFF and wait for the go ahead first before drawing up anything.

In the end I quit. :( I couldn't take it anymore, it was too much pressure, I decided to let the baby have his bottle. Ofcourse I feel horrible that I let the loser win, I wanted to fight for my right to remain the artist, but it just was too much of a job. Now, I'm still the artist for SOME of the game, just not ALL of it, but I wish I could have done all of it, its just that my friend doesn't want this to turn into a sherade and take too long to release.

That reminds me, I better get back to work on that stuff soon!

To be perfectly honest, if I were in that guy's shoes, I'd have probably sent at least a little artwork to whet the manager's appetite. This guy saw an opportunity and took it. You delayed and, well, lost. Sorry. He isn't trying to show off or piss you off, but he's excited about his own possibilities.



NeantHumain
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17 Jul 2006, 1:07 am

k96822 wrote:
One of the biggest problems I have with social interaction is that there are so many things that are supposed to be inherently good that are, in fact, somehow, through mysterious machinations of social complexity, become bad. Recently, I have embarrassed myself by being enthusiastic about something and have become pretty depressed today because, frankly, I can't imagine why this is bad.

I just joined an organization. This organization is made up of about 4,000 people nationwide with maybe fifty in my local chapter. When I join something like this, I feel I must contribute. So, I created a desktop using their logo to show that I can contribute graphically to their organization. This logo was three-dimensional with the full modern treatment and I thought it turned out very good and professional.

So, I put the desktops up on my web-page, said "hi" and that I was a new member to some of the officers that had to do with publications and promotional material and such, and expected a "hi" back and maybe a "welcome to the club" kind of thing. Two weeks pass and I received nothing. One person looked at it according to the log and did not respond; people seem to have dismissed it off-hand without even looking at it. I asked a friend of mine about it and he had mentioned that it looked like I was a teenager trying to show off what an artist I am by doing that and that it is childish.

Now, what I cannot figure out is, without doing that, the organization would not know what I could contribute to them. I need help analyzing how this is childish behavior. I made a point to keep my e-mail short and professional with simply a link to the web page, which simply contained links to the different sizes of desktops. I've run into this other times in my life as well: I get excited and enthusiastic and try to contribute, only to get either ignored or, far worse, attacked with negativity. I've also been told that people find this behavior threatening.

I mean, how does one even progress in life in such a situation? It amazes me. What am I doing wrong?

NTs often get caught up in status games, so they interpret everyone's actions in the context of this game. A completely innocent act could be interpreted as defiance of the hierarchy. NTs are very people oriented, and they're intensely conscious of how others perceive them and what their status is to others. They tend to perceive other people's actions as attempting to increase their status in other people's eyes by, for example, showing off talent, flaunting credentials and expertise, or flattering people.

For a person with Asperger's syndrome who is much more focused on personal objectives and ideas, this mode of thought can be quite foreign and confusing. Frankly, the people in your club are probably jealous or at least presumptuous.

I should not it's only a certain type of NT who engages in these petty popularity contests and acts of Machiavellian manipulation.



AaronAgassi
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17 Jul 2006, 1:54 am

Just such chronic Fundamental Attribution Error, Hostile Attribution bias and classic projection are all too often symptomatic of severe heteronomy.


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k96822
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17 Jul 2006, 9:28 am

Wow, there is a lot of data here :-)

I guess, to sum it up, I'm not going about showing my enthusiasm correctly based on a set of rules, which are different depending on the person perceiving my actions. Since I do not know the person perceiving my actions, it is a roll of the dice as to whether my behavior is correct or incorrect in their eyes.

To do something better than another person is to attract hatred towards oneself, like described by Solidess. This may lead to active destructive behavior on their part toward that person, allowing them to rationalize any kind of behavior. I've seen this kind of thing a lot.

I don't think there actually is an answer to this. I've noticed most people make a point to be mediocre to avoid that hate. The people who do nothing at all are the ones that never get in trouble. I've given a term to something that causes me trouble at work in mediocre places: "Maintenance By-Proxy". It means that, although I do my best to be a good employee and never be maintenance to my boss, that act of doing so causes other people to bother my boss and, as a result, I become a high-maintenance employee. What motivates that behavior is well described by the feelings Solidess expressed.

I see no solution to this problem other than to trust in God.



AaronAgassi
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17 Jul 2006, 12:21 pm

The lost revenue due to just such workplace intrigues and intimidation of enforced mediocrity are literally incalculable.


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17 Jul 2006, 1:21 pm

k96822 wrote:
I guess, to sum it up, ... a set of rules, which are different depending on the person perceiving my actions. Since I do not know the person perceiving my actions, it is a roll of the dice as to whether my behavior is correct or incorrect in their eyes.


That's about right. In all sorts of business and social situations. There are a set of intertwined games, with perceived rules differing from person to person by mood, objective, and place in the pecking order. (One of the games is to see whose rules can be made to stick)
And frequently the rules of the game, the rules of engagement, will not be formalised, or explained. The expectation is that they will already be known, or be picked up by instinct and observation.

("Rules? In a knife fight?" "Well, iff'n there ain't any rules..."
Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid)

Sometimes I play by their rules, sometimes I play by mine, sometimes I decline to play.



k96822
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17 Jul 2006, 1:31 pm

Yep! And, the way we have to behave is to just keep trying, I guess. Here's another quote that I think applies:

"George Bernard Shaw once said that as a child he realized that nine out of ten things he tried were failures. 'I didn't want to be a failure,' he said. 'So, I decided I had to work ten times harder!'"

Source:
http://www.appleone.ca/Career_Seekers/Core/core_11.asp



k96822
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17 Jul 2006, 1:32 pm

AaronAgassi wrote:
The lost revenue due to just such workplace intrigues and intimidation of enforced mediocrity are literally incalculable.


Indeed! We haven't a number so large.



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17 Jul 2006, 1:47 pm

The motivations created by the need for job security can often run at odds with whatever the ostensible point of doing business in the first place.


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k96822
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17 Jul 2006, 1:49 pm

AaronAgassi wrote:
The motivations created by the need for job security can often run at odds with whatever the ostensible point of doing business in the first place.


True. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs puts the need for survival at the base, making it the foundational need, more important than any other. Because people need money to survive, they react primitively to any threat to that survival. We have to move fairly far up the pyramid to get to a non-primitive need, after all.



k96822
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17 Jul 2006, 1:50 pm

Solidess, I'm wondering: what would you have done in the other artist's place? What is the correct behavior for that artist?



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17 Jul 2006, 6:07 pm

k96822 wrote:
AaronAgassi wrote:
The motivations created by the need for job security can often run at odds with whatever the ostensible point of doing business in the first place.


True. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs puts the need for survival at the base, making it the foundational need, more important than any other. Because people need money to survive, they react primitively to any threat to that survival. We have to move fairly far up the pyramid to get to a non-primitive need, after all.

Worse, when feeding your kids is on the line, toadying and worse become the only responsible course.


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