The notion of being "done"

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Roman
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16 Sep 2012, 4:30 am

SpiritBlooms wrote:

I think when people remember these things it's a bit like that, just protecting themselves from further emotional upsets.

Two points:

1. If you dont talk to someone, the fact that a given person supposedly disrespects you is not going to go away. So the way to protect yourself from being upset is to put a mental anesthetic so to speak, that way you wont care about the fact taht they dont respect you. The side effect of that mental anesthetic is that you dont care about the person altogether, hence she is forgetful when it comes to responding to me. But here is an interesting question why cant a person find a mental anesthetic that, say, reduces the feelings twofold, as opposed to killing the feelings altogether? If she were to find that milder version of anesthetic, then she would be able to continue to talk to me without having SERIOUS emoitonal damage and then, in the process of talking, she would get updated information about me and realize that she doesnt need milder anesthetic either. Granted, milder anesthetic would still put her under the risk of MODERATE upset; but moderate upsets are part of life, it is only the SERIOUS upset she is trying to avoid. So it seems like the key issue is the fact that the one and only mental anesthetic available is severe one while all mild ones are lacking. That is pretty black or white. And by the way aspies are similar in that respect. I have read somewhere a theory that autistics are woud-be-sensitive people who use a defense mechanism against overload in order to dump their feelings altogether. Again, sounds black or white. But I guess autistics are not the only ones who do that, NT-s do that too as illustrated by Anne example. NT-s simply dont notice what THEY do because they are too used to it thats why they say aspies are the ones who are black or white.

2. If you say that the underlying reason is to protect oneself from emotional upsets, then what would be the reason of professors no longer willing to listen to me once their mind is made up? In their case I dont think I hurt them emotionally, I mean it was pure professional discussion. There seems to be a more general pattern of MADE UP MIND and the fact that people dont test their assumptions when their mind is made up. One SPECIAL CASE of it is when they are hurt emotionally; that SPECIAL CASE can be explained by the mental anesthetic theory. But how would you explain OTHER cases of mind being made up? To me the whole notion of made up mind sounds robotic.

Roman
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16 Sep 2012, 7:24 am

aspiemike wrote:

I think it is probably common for aspies.
When another person tells me a certain lie (happens when our feelings are involved and we may or may not be at our weakest) I decide that I am done with that person simply because I feel betrayed and that other person would easily justify doing it again if given the chance.

In my case if someone lies to me I would WANT to talk to them in order to get an explanation as to why they thought it was okay to lie and why they had such a little respect of me.

The only time when I avoid a person is when I know I am in the wrong and I dont want to be found out or confronted about it. In all other cases I dont avoid things.

On the other hand, if something goes smoothly for a very long time and I take the situation for granted it is possible I might forget to put sufficient effort. But in this case it would be an honest forgetfulness as opposed to a pretend forgetrulness in an attempts to shut something down.

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16 Sep 2012, 8:56 am

One day they do something that shows you their direction is opposite to what you'd like, so there's no point in continuing to try / hope. The day you get this conviction is the point of no return. You realize the things that bothered you were actually a lot more deeply-rooted and unchangeable in them than you had thought till that day. That day you lose hope.

And why not give a chance 10 years later?

1. Because people rarely change much in their core values.
2. Because you've both developed in different directions so now you have EVEN LESS in common than you used to.
3. Someone who brings bad memories is someone I don't want near, regardless of how nice they now are.
4. Usually the person doesn't compensate you enough for the things they did to you in the past, so the pain is still there.

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JanuaryMan
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16 Sep 2012, 7:03 pm

People can have a change of heart but if you find people are permanently "done" with someone in particular they may need to review how they behave or seek help dealing with people.

Asperger's seem to be rather unforgiving from one off experiences based on my time here in WP..so it's not out of the question for this to be a common trait in Asperger's.

Roman
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20 Sep 2012, 6:02 pm

Moondust wrote:

One day they do something that shows you their direction is opposite to what you'd like, so there's no point in continuing to try / hope. .

If my direction was to try to be as close to my mom as possible why would I be pissed off at her asserting this?

Yes there are times when my direction is opposite to what the girl likes. For example I had a fight one time when I said career is number 1 while the girl kept insisting relationships are number 1. Well in this case I am NOT taking back what I said about career. I stand by what I said even though I lost said girl over it.

Now, in case of my mom I dont stand by what I blurred out do I. So clearly I didnt really mean what I said about my mom since when I mean what I say I stand by it as career example indicates. So why is Anne acting like my mom is the case of opposite direction?

More generally, if the person doesnt know my direction they should ASK ME. Instead of rejecting me beccause of my different direciton how about offering to date me UNDER A CONDITION that I follow THEIR direction. Now if my direction is indeed different (as is the case with physics) I most certainly would refuse the deal, while if it is something random like my mom then yes I would accept the deal. That way I can speak for myself instead of them trying to read my mind for me.

Moondust wrote:

The day you get this conviction is the point of no return. You realize the things that bothered you were actually a lot more deeply-rooted and unchangeable in them than you had thought till that day. That day you lose hope.

The only reason I was unchangable with Anne is that I didnt realize that anything bothered her to begin with. When I finally realized the whole mom issue I was MORE THEN WILLING to change and do exactly what she wants, but she didnt care any more.

Moondust wrote:

And why not give a chance 10 years later?

1. Because people rarely change much in their core values.

But like I said, being a mommasboy is NOT my core value. If it was, I wont be so pissed off at the assertion (just like I would never be pissed off if someone accuses me of being a physics nerd since I am, indeed, one). So if she were to reject me for my core value of liking physics THAT would be fair enough I wont have a single complaint. But she rejected me for being sheltered by my mom and THAT is NOT my core value at all.

Moondust wrote:

2. Because you've both developed in different directions so now you have EVEN LESS in common than you used to.

We were developing in different directions before we first met, as well. So if she appraoches people she never met before she might as well talk to someone she didnt talk for 10 years.

Moondust wrote:

3. Someone who brings bad memories is someone I don't want near, regardless of how nice they now are.

But if I dont stand by whatever I said or done that hurt her why would it still hurt her? I mean what if its as extreme as my OBSESSING over how I OBVIOUSLY didnt mean a word I said and mean 180 degrees OPPOSITE. Why would she still be hurting over what I didnt mean to say?

Moondust wrote:

4. Usually the person doesn't compensate you enough for the things they did to you in the past, so the pain is still there.

Why wont it be possible to compensate for it? Obviously I was NOT "trying" to hurt her, it just happened. So what if I will now be TRYING to PLEASE her. Wouldnt logic say that concerted effort (to please) would weigh more than something completely random (hurting without meaning)?

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20 Sep 2012, 10:38 pm

Roman, my experience and feeling is that I never got from anyone the real reason why they dumped me. The exposed reason very often sounded like something I could've easily changed about me if given the chance.

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arielhawksquill
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21 Sep 2012, 7:44 am

If you spend so much time trying to argue people out of their own feelings and decisions, I can see why they would get done with you pretty easily.

Roman
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28 Sep 2012, 1:01 am

Moondust wrote:

In Anne's case her reasons are genuine as evidenced by the length of the rejection letter she sent me (I am discussing part 3 of said letter):

Moondust wrote:

dear Roman,

Thank you so much for your email. It was so nice and open and honest. I know
things like that are so hard to do... its totally putting yourself out there.
I definitely know what you mean about us having a special bond and feeling like
we have known one another for a long time. Even though you cannot always
express what you want to express, the things we do communicate to one another
really hit home. Nothing you said in your email is silly or stupid. I know
how you feel when you meet someone who you think finally gets you.

So here is my situation: 1.I am just recently recovering from a very horrible
cycle of depression that lasted from last yr until probably last semester.
There are still residual effects and may be for awhile, Bipolar is so
unpredictable. Because of that, I feel like I really need to focus on myself
and making myself feel good and not getting that from someone else. When I
have boyfriends, I tend to let their opinions of me dictate how i feel about
myself when, in order to be a strong person, you really need to feel good about
yourself on your own. I havent reached that point yet, so i am staying out of
relationships until I have. Otherwise, I couldnt give 100% to a relationship
because of my problems.

2: Though i do feel like i have known you a long time i still feel like I dont
know you maybe as well as you know me. B/c of your condition, it is very hard
for me to understand how you are feeling or thinking in general. I dont ever
know if you do things just b/c you think i want you to or if you do them
because you really want to do them. I think it is going to take me a very long
time to really get to understand you, and I plan to take as long as time it
takes because from what I have seen thus far, you are a beautiful, intelligent,
incredibly strong person.

3: I know you are used to women taking care of you. Your mom sounds like she
shelters you and i have a feeling your ex-girlfriend did the same. If you
would be expecting that from someone in a relationship, that would be an area
where i just couldnt handle. When I am in a relationship with someone, i want
that person to be independent and very confident in himself as an individual.
I want to be able to help make him more confident and help him grow from
challenging him with my ideas and knowledge. I expect the same from him. I
would never want to be with a man who took care of me to the point where I
wasnt my own person. I want to be with someone who challenges me to be a better
person. I think right now, you are in a stage where you are still struggling
with issues of independence. I feel that if we were in a relationship I would
run the show. I dont want that. I know how super intelligent you are and deep
down very caring, but I think you are so used to hiding thinhgs from everyone
that you havent yet learned that you are your own person now. If we were in a
relationship now, I would be so frustrated because I would want you to initiate
conversation, challenge my ideas, push me to be the best person I can be. I
dont think you have reached that point yet because you havent been able to do
that for yourself in some areas of your life. I guess we are in the same boat
on that one.

So you may be mad at that last paragraph, and i may be totally off- i guess
thats just the impression I get. I would love to hear what you think. How do
you view yourself and what do you expect out of a relationship?

Roman, you are so wonderful, such a suprise and a blessing to come into my life
this year. I know we will be close for a long time. I cant promise anything
further than friendship right now because of the three items listed above, but
I know things change. Hopefully you and I will get strong this year and start
seeing things more clearly. I think only then could we pursue something
further.

ok, well write back or we can talk about it tomorrow. and dont feel stupid for
writing it! I really respect that you put your feeling out there this time
instead of hiding them. That really means alot to me.

Sleep well tonite and see you at 9, russian angel

Roman
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28 Sep 2012, 1:04 am

arielhawksquill wrote:

If you spend so much time trying to argue people out of their own feelings and decisions, I can see why they would get done with you pretty easily.

Thats true. What is ironic though is that Anne was ASKING me for the feedback as in

1. She was asking me about my mom long BEFORE the rejection letter was sent

2. In paragraphs 5 and 7 of rejection letter she acknowledged she might be wrong and ASKED ME what is my opinion

The problem is that I didnt take either of the above opportunities but then later wanted to go back and answer the very question she was asking. Yet I came across as pushy for the simple reason of TIMING: the TIME when I payed attention to her questions happen to differ from the time the questions were asked. I just wish timing didnt play such a major role. In my book better late then never; yet others dont seem to think that way.

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28 Sep 2012, 1:10 am

I've had this same problem, and it just confounds me! And you all know what happens my case, I get compared to bad people!

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28 Sep 2012, 1:38 am

Sounds like she's genuinely leaving the doors open, so i don't understand the idea of "done" here?

But yes, sounds like she has a serious problem with one aspect of your personality.

However, it doesn't sound to me like she's basing herself on one instance, a misunderstanding, but a general impression formed through regular interaction.

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Roman
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28 Sep 2012, 12:33 pm

Moondust wrote:

Sounds like she's genuinely leaving the doors open, so i don't understand the idea of "done" here?

Remember that email was sent in 2005. Back then yes, she left the door open. But then when I came to discuss it the following morning, I said a bunch of things I didn't mean (such as "if you will be with someone else I will not be able to be your friend"and "I would have dropped you if it wasn't for my desperation due to Asperger") and AT THE SAME TIME I completely skipped something I DID mean (I didnt even mention my mom in that meeting). So as a result she was "done"talking about the subject". Now the key is that I didnt realize how I sounded when I said the above things; for example, when I said I would "drop her" I didnt mean ""drop HER", I meant "drop THE SUBJECT" and when I said I wont be able to be her friend I didnt threaten her I just expressed how difficult things are for me (i.e. the awkwardness I would feel). But when I explained it to her in the subsequent email she said she was "done talking about the subject". Now, she was not "done"being my friend yet; she was still inviting me to come. But because she was done with the subject I started acting out in various ways (such as deliberately showing up late to test whehter she will call me or not and then dwelling into details of various things she said or didnt say) and as a result a month later she stopped talking to me completely.

But once again I did not realize what I was doing until MUCH later. On my end of a line I was having best possible intentions and were "grasping at the straws". But now 7 years later I see CLEARLY why it came off differently (if I describe my actions in third person and skip all rationalizations it would sound like a complete jerk). So now that I know I will never repeat that behavior. Thus, ALL I want to communicate to her is three things:

1. My mom had wrong impression of my needs so even though my mom sheltered me, I myself HATED her for that very thing. So ... I do NOT need to be sheltered. Besides, after I left to India in 2009, my mom was forced to back off so right now she doesnt shelter me that much. I realize this is true only after 2009, but still back in 2005 I didnt need sheltering either and my mom was wrong.

2. The fact that I was so upset about losing Anne had nothing to do with the fact that I am completely deseprate (her interpreation) but a lot more with the fact that I perceived her as higher quality than other women I DID date (in particular, the fact that she was math graduate student).

3. When I was saying/doing things that would hurt her, I didnt mean it at all. I simply didnt see myself from outside. Now that I see my past behavior from outside, I wont do said things.

Now these three poitns are simple enough, arent they? BUt in order to communicate them to her we have to be on talking terms. And thats where the concept of being "done"comes in. Why cant she spare 5 minutes of her time to hear the above three points?

Moondust wrote:

However, it doesn't sound to me like she's basing herself on one instance, a misunderstanding, but a general impression formed through regular interaction.

In that email she was referring to my mom, not to our interaction. I am talking about item 3, remember?

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28 Sep 2012, 12:45 pm

Roman, you pose a very interesting and important question and now we have more info to answer. I think you're talking about "a point of no return" in relationships.

I reached such a point with my ex husband. He'd do horrible things to me, but one day he did one thing that was a point of no return. Yes, there is such a thing. It's when you believe you've found out ONE THING about the person which you didn't know and which cannot change as soon as you'd need it to change, i.e. immediately.

In the case of my ex husband, it was the very instant he said something like "If I wanted to be respectful towards my wife, I would've married a blond from a rich family." The next morning I served him with divorce papers.

Whether you meant it or not, you said "If I didn't have a disorder, I'd have a bigger choice of women and then wouldn't need to choose you". I may be wrong, of course, but I believe this was her "point of no return".

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Roman
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28 Sep 2012, 2:59 pm

Moondust wrote:

Whether you meant it or not, you said "If I didn't have a disorder, I'd have a bigger choice of women and then wouldn't need to choose you". I may be wrong, of course, but I believe this was her "point of no return".

But here is what I meant to say. Anne was visibly frustrated that I looked upset. I wanted to make her feel better. So I was GOING to say "my demanding behavior has nothing to do with you but only with my disorder". Now, an equivalent way of saying it is "if I didnt have a disorder I wouldnt have been so demanding". Now, an equivalent of "not be so demanding" is "drop the SUBJECT". Thus, yet another way of saying it is "if I didnt have a disorder I would drop the SUBJECT". Now, the one small mistake I made is that I said "you" instead of a "subject", thus I said "if I didnt have a disorder I would drop YOU". All she heard was that last sentence hence her anger. But I want to convey to her that

1. No, I meant the FIRST sentence above not the last one. The last one was misphrasing.

2. Besides, even the first statement was wrong. As a matter of fact when I had other women I was still obsessing about Anne because of her higher quality. So the reason I was going to say the first sentence was basically to grasp at the straws and get her sympathy but it wasnt meant.

Now, I agree that part 2 is still a manipulation and manipulation is wrong. But again this was not my intentions. I intended to simply come across as nice and agreable. She was the FIRST one who said "if you are so desperate then OF COURSE you would want me" or something along these lines. I then decided to show her that, for once, I actually acknowledge what she said instead of arguing against it. So I simply phrased it in my own words and thats where "drop you" came from. Now I see it was a mistake. As far as this particular point is concerned, I SHOULD HAVE argued it with her since it is important enough (while the time to be agreable would be a mirriad of little things I was dissecting that dont even matter). But I was simply unable to think on my feet so my first reaction when she looked upset was to simply agree with whatever she said and in order for my agreeing to be genuine I had to say it in my own words which came off wrong. BUT the point is that I was trying to arose her pity AS OPPOSED TO threaten her. THe first sentence, "my demanding behavior has nothing to do with you but only with my disorder", has no threat in it does it.

So this brings up the following point. Suppose someone was meaning to say "f-l-a-g" but accidentally it sounded like "f-u-c-k". In this case it is very unfair if communication line will end and that person wont have a chace to make a simple statement that he meant to say f-l-a-g.

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28 Sep 2012, 3:16 pm

I guess most people (AS\NT) have a certain stereotype in their minds like 'if somebody says I'm fat I'll never talk to him again' or I can't be a friend of someone who's always late'. Once you hit this apple in their brains you're done.

Roman
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28 Sep 2012, 3:36 pm

kensa wrote:

Spot on and that is precisely what makes it unfair. Instead of evaluating each other as COMPLEX human being with 100-s of variables they just play some sport where the rules demand that a person "strikes out" as soon as they hit a wrong square, even if they are a saint otherwise. And then they say aspies are the ones who dont see the big picture. Well it seems NT-s share this tendency.

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