Forming Social Bonds Without Contextual Support?

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Sorry, but this is B.S. You are a hermit, you live like a hermit, you hold people in the same low esteem that a hermit does, then you ask why I can't make friends, excuse me, social bonds.

You need help you can't get here.

Not B.S., just something you personally can't relate to, apparently.

The O.P. wants friendships that are rooted in comradeship. He is a person with a strong particular vision of what he wants the world to become. And, like probably most such people, he wants friends who share his vision and who are working with him towards that vision.

I can relate, to some extent at least, because I too am a person with a larger societal vision, albeit a vision different from his. (I've had different visions at different points in my life.)

The O.P.'s problem is that he now feels utterly defeated in his attempts to get his life's work off the ground and to advance his vision, and he now feels utterly defeated in his life more generally.

(Another problem, in my at least tentative opinion, is that the O.P. may be too much of a purist about his vision, thus unable to think strategically or make incremental progress.)

There is literally nothing wrong with my writing style, at all. This is not even a reasonable suggestion since it is well established that my writing ability is far superior to most people. There is nothing in question here for me to give up on. The things you are considering to be "any progress" do not count as progress to me.

"Otein and Jolesh were walking the trail along the river when they came upon a young boy crouching on the ground. The boy was sprinkling a handful of salt onto a slug.
Otein reacted with disdain, 'boy, pouring salt on this slug will kill it and you will watch it die! This is not a good use of your energy. This salt could be used to season meat, and the slug could continue to process the already dying contents of the forest floor.'
Jolesh reached down and picked up a handful of salt. He split the pile in half in his palm and brushed one half off to the side of the path. 'If you pour only half a handful of salt on the slug instead, you will save it from the damage of a full handful.'"

I was not saying that people can change their lifestyles, although if they were actually willing to, and weren't just saying they are, then they could change them together of course; I was saying that a real social reform movement has to be about changing lifestyles. That's why an example like extinction rebellion is not a real social reform movement, it's mostly a bunch of people trying to feel like they're doing something when they're really not. They are unconsciously driven by the compulsion to feel in control and comfortable, rather than continuing to pay attention to the currently horrible truth and admit that they are not able to make progress because there aren't enough people (as of now) paying attention to the currently horrible truth. The people who are paying attention to the currently horrible truth find themselves repeatedly failing to get through to those who are insincere in their desire for change.

I really do not need to learn more about how to live in a regenerative way. I have studied this extensively and I am SICK of learning things that I cannot apply. What I need opportunity to act, but that requires people with shared purpose - of which I can find none - or inheritance of ancestral land - which is not part of my life. Cincinnati is very far away from me but I know of permaculture groups that are a bit closer, and they are still too far for me to be able to work with any of the people I've encountered through those groups. There are no permaculture related social projects going on near where I live, and I have reached out extensively to other people and tried to organize them myself and received no responses, regardless of the methodology I tried for reaching out.

The one time I got a job, I had no issue holding it down. In fact, my employer wanted me to keep working there far more than I was able and I had to quit because of a severe health problem that was partially triggered by extreme resentment of the situation and how useless and unreasonable it was (despite the fact that I was working at an urban farm/garden center, because it seemed like the closest opportunity I could find to what I value). There is no issue with work. The issue is other people and being forced to enable their delusions in order to get ANY opportunity. Nearly every person I've ever encountered has been fundamentally broken and domineering.
I have no interest in money. I already completed wasting part of my life on that pursuit. There is no valid reason to try to have or use money, nor to try to survive within modern society, at all. Any person who believes there is a valid reason for it is mentally ill. Being able to participate in the economy is ALWAYS a disability. Economics is always a symptom of disease. ALL forms of reliance on trade are symptomatic of dysfunctional habitat and culture.

I'm not contemplating suicide, there is nothing to contemplate. I do not want to commit suicide, so I won't, even though I know it is the ethical thing to do. I do not care even a tiny bit about "small contributions". Life is not inherently valuable, and it is unworthy of ALL of us. We are all victims of unintentional necessary waste.

I have already been turning my parent's backyard (a small 6x12 meter rectangle surrounded by garages) into a small patch of food "forest"/wildlife habitat for the past 8 years, as well as continuing to plant edible native species in vacant spaces around, without trying to particularly cultivate any one area as a habitat for myself.

I'm not antisocial, modern society is antisocial, this is obvious.

All real functional community is based on compatibility of values, lifestyles, and orientations. My values, goals, and orientations are just incompatible with all the people I've found who could be part of my life. It is not a one-directional thing like me pushing people away: it is about compatibility.

Incremental progress is no longer relevant to our current situation. Change is not only gradual in the universe. There are times when gradual change is interrupted by phase shifts. We are currently facing a time of extreme rapid changes, that will come even if we do not change ourselves. The ONLY way to make progress as a species in this context is to intentionally select how we will dramatically change in a short time. If we do not choose, then we will be torn apart and things will get much, much worse. There's already been thousands of years of people putting off incremental change, there is literally no chance left for that. We are at the end of the gradual period already.
That said, reality - by its fundamental nature - is simply insufficient of existence. Thus, I do not view this issue as an evaluation of how to work with what is available but whether or not this particular part of reality is even worthy of anything, and it is not. I'm not talking about ideals here, I'm talking about sufficiency. This part of reality is far far far below sufficiency. Unless an opportunity that isn't currently present arises, there is simply no goal available for me to pursue here. Trying to make incremental change by continuing to beat my head against the walls of other people's stupidity and unconscious hedonism is not a valid goal for me.

One person’s stupidity is another person’s genius.

If you believe most people are stupid, you will have a hard time making friends.

No matter how good your writing ability is, there is always room for improvement, to make your writing more persuasive and more attention-getting, so that more people will pay attention than now do. Persuasion is an art. (I myself certainly don't claim to have mastered it.)


Is this simply because you believe that a total collapse of human society is so imminent that "any progress" would be too little, too late?


I don't understand the point of this story, at all, or its relevance to our discussion. There are probably some key points, or some key cultural references, that I am missing? For one thing, I don't understand the point of sprinkling salt on a slug, in the first place.


... if enough of them were living close enough together, that is. And, for all too many people today, like you, moving is not an option.


To what extent that is true depends on the particular social reform movement and its goals. Some social reform movements entail much more radical lifestyle changes than others.


The larger ecology movement is also not in agreement as to precisely what kinds of changes are needed.

Pretty near everyone in the ecology agrees on the need to (1) stop anthropogenic climate change, (2) stop and hopefully reverse soil degradation, and (3) eliminate or at least drastically reduce various kinds of damage caused by industrial civilization (in the latter's current form, at least).

But not everyone in the ecology movement agrees that the only way to accomplish this is for the human race to give up industrial/agricultural civilization entirely, in favor of everyone becoming a self-sufficient permaculture gardener.

Yet I think we can all agree that anyone who is able to restore abandoned, degraded land should be entitled to live on it as a self-sufficient permaculture gardener, if they so choose.


... or the ability to persuade more people of your point of view, so there will then be more people with shared purpose. That's why I suggested working on your writing style. Your writing isn't bad, but, as I said above, persuasion is an art.

But you might have better options....


One of the paradoxes of the ecology movement (especially the more radical anti-civilization branches thereof) is that it's easier to find like-minded people in large cities (mostly because there are more people in large cities, to begin with) than it is to find like-minded people in rural or semi-rural areas, or even in smaller cities.


Could you give some examples of what you mean by "their delusions"? Do you simply mean that most customers didn't share your belief in the urgent necessity of getting rid of industrial/agricultural entirely ASAP? Or do you mean more than just that?


Hmm, not sure what to make of this. I see two possibilities:

(1) Perhaps being "broken and domineering" is just part of the culture in your local area, perhaps just a more intense version of the kind of arrogance that is more-or-less baked in to contemporary American culture?

(2) I'm wondering if most of these people are "broken and domineering" in their behavior toward everyone, or whether they are bullying you, in particular, for whatever reason?

I do know that my boyfriend has lived many different places here in the U.S.A. and has encountered lots of bullying, mostly due to his speech impairment, almost everywhere he has lived except where he is living now, here in New York City, where we have enough immigrants from enough different places around the world that his speech impairment is just another accent.


At least you're getting practice with what you've learned. I'm glad to hear that.


I agree with this.


Perhaps, then, you could have an interim goal of being as prepared as possible for any such opportunity that may arise?


Perhaps a good interim goal might be to get some sort of online degree that, together with your gardening experience, might qualify you to get a relevant job somewhere other than where you are living now, where you might finally be able to find enough like-minded people to create the community you want?

Persuasion is not an art, it is a sickness. Trying to persuade people is toxic behavior akin to force. Inspiration does not come from marketing strategies. "Any progress" doesn't matter. Only a state above sufficiency matters, and there are literally no steps to take towards that, because almost no one sincerely cares about life, even when they think they do.

The point of the parable is to show how unreasonable it is to say that choosing less damage is progress.

There is no such thing as self-sufficiency. That is just another buzzword variation on the lie of separation/independence.

People who are not sincerely seeking truth cannot find truth, even if it is placed directly in front of them by someone else. Convincing people of things is not possible, and it never occurs. When people change their minds it is because of something inside them. That CAN be related to processing information from other people, but it is not accurate to describe the phenomenon as being convinced by another person. Even if it was possible, trying to convince or persuade people would be taking away their opportunity to sincerely seek truth. Sharing information is different than trying to intentionally shape appearances with the hope to enhance persuasion.

I live in a large city, it's just not close to Cincinnati.

The delusions I was referring to are like the belief that ownership is a real phenomenon apart from restricted access, like the idea that agriculture is a development instead of a degeneration, like the assignment of value to central bank coupons, like the belief that dependence on trade is necessary and useful, etc. I'm talking about the larger of context of why I even tried to get a job in the first place, since I've never wanted to have money or buy things, but other people use violence to enforce their ONE way of living, which is entirely based on stupidity. It's not like I was trying to force other people to live a certain way - if they want to keep being stupid and destroying the world I'm not going to try to make them stop - they were forcing me to live a certain way, and if they don't allow me to choose even just how I live my own life without bothering other people, then why the f**k would I try to live?
If someone was genuinely going to try to work with the system to make change, they would have to use extreme violence, because that is the system. That's how you work with the system. And that's stupid and would not enable real progress because it would not inspire people of a better way of living.

Being prepared for a someday maybe isn't a meaningful goal to me, it is something to do to pass time until death - which is guaranteed. That said, I did gather tree seeds all last year and set them to germinate over winter and I will make a section of the yard into a tree nursery next spring, in case I ever have somewhere to start growing a food forest I will be prepared in that sense, along with all the other things I have already prepared, like having portable water filtration systems that I have experience using, continuing to learn to build and restore tools, continuing to learn to build shelter with natural materials, continuing to learn to identify wild species, continuing to learn about regenerative land management, how to prepare and preserve foods, etc..... But maybe someday is not a justification to put effort into doing bad unreasonable things so I can survive longer.

I already have completed two permaculture design courses in person, some years ago. but I would never try to make money again, in any way, no matter what. and I see no reason to even consider trying to be part of community anymore. That would just be ignorant of me. It is too clear that I am incompatible with the current state of humanity and I'm not interested in trying to find one or two people who I could have a meaningful bond with so that they can just watch me rot and die since there is no valid lifestyle available.

Edit: to clarify, this thread can be closed since it was a mistake for me to ask how to do something that I should not do (form social bonds).

Forming social bonds without contextual support of work, school, clubs, etc. can be the hardest of social challenges for largely independent adults on the Autism Spectrum - hence, it's probably not advised!