New girl in my office

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Honestly, you do have to stop with the games.

You're about as good a "game player" as I am----and I suck at it.

Most women like guys who are straightforward----not ones who play games. Always respond to somebody if you want to respond to them. But only do it once a day if she doesn't respond back.

And don't deflect your anger at someone else at somebody who doesn't deserve it. I've been the recipient of that kind of crap----and this sort of thing makes me pretty angry.

I probably shouldn't be so blunt----but you have a certain stubborness.

I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just feel like you analyze things to death. Save the big analysis for your physics discoveries.

QFT is like an intellectual version of Marknis....

I understand what you are saying about "cheating". I feel that way also sometimes. It's one reason I don't "self promote" well at my office. For me it's ok to do the work, but to "toot my horn" about is uncomfortable. Where's the line between self promotion and bragging. Maybe there isn't.

It's odd to me though how you are drawing your line. To me, saying hello and tipping are both social constructs (skills); I don't see why one would naturally fall within "the rules" and the other one doesn't ("cheating"). If it's an experiment, try tipping and not saying hello to see which one is "rewarded" more.

Teasing: You need an Officemate rating. I believe that saying hello first in the office would increase your Officemate rating to 4.65. Just don't tip her, as in this social setting that would decrease the rating. In you words, "cheat".


I know you thought my previous husband analogy was silly, but believe me, even a marriage is a social relationship that requires a near daily commitment. So here goes again, I also would prefer that it is my husband who initiates physical contact, affection, etc. - to show he cares for me, but that is not healthy. I need to initiate these things - and show I care for him, especially if I have recently upset him.


Have you heard of Cellular mosaicism? I'm not sure I'm getting the term exactly correct, but the idea I get is that sometimes things do fix themselves if we leave them alone (and won't otherwise).

In my case, there is some value to considering how my current work situation turned to crap and my part in that (to help avoid recurrance), but at some point I need to put the plant back in the ground and see if it grows (perhaps the crap has an upside: fertilizer!).


Ah, I am something who takes every courtesy as a meaningful connection (a problem for me), so didn't understand. I get teary if someone moves their stuff out of my way and says "excuse me". You might call that common courtesy, but I'll take it either way.


I don't know. If it were me, I wouldn't know either and just bundle them into the same response. You could be not interested, unkind or disrespectful - I can't distinguish which and would respond as if you have "keep out" sign in any case. Nowadays I am bolder. There was a man at my office who was standoffish. I pushed the issue and he reluctantly agreed to converse with me. Come to find out he was a suspected murderer. Really. Not joking. So, perhaps in my youth it was especially good that I stayed away from men that were standoffish. You could be inadvertently triggering her survival mechanism. Consistently doesn't say "hi" first = Danger (in some unnamed way).


Interesting... You wanting your officemate to say "hi" first could be seen as "needy". It's codependent for sure --- I'll do this, if you do that. I am rather codependent also. My initial thought was that if you really wanted attention you would do all you could to get it --- like say "hi" first. But I guess it's a codependent need. Personally, some codependency is good, but like anything, too much is too much. If you want attention, not responding to someone and not initiating conversation is a really f'ed up way to get it... not. That said, in college, I had a roommate who did not like me and at that time I probably responded (or rather didn't) similarly to you (and still do to a lesser degree today).


Funny, as I left yesterday I called out "good thing I have work friends!" and my work friend said "we're not your friends" and punched me in the arm. He may have said "just teasing" but I am not sure. I'm going to let that plant stay in the ground. (assume it was in goodness and not question nor obsess, maybe I'll even tease him back someday )

There you have it. I would be fine if you didn't understand or said it was nonsense - but "silly" is a trigger for me. That's interesting, my husband has said "stupid" (similar to not understanding) is a trigger for him. I bet it's in part a cultural, gender bias thing. Some latent perception of... Men aren't silly (just their ideas), but women are silly - ouch. On the other hand, women aren't stupid (just their ideas), but men are stupid - ouch. Could just be the subculture I grew up in. Of course those are not Truth.


As karfiekortie suggested, consider that sometimes you don't have to, and shouldn't. Make more (positive) assumptions. My job as a cost estimator helped me with that. Practicing again and again to increase my assumptions and observing consequences (budget variances). Up to 10% was fine 90% of the time and the occasional 50% variance was fine too if it was less than 5% of the time. This would apply to our social interactions also in some way, which amazingly I don't want to think about right now. By the way, did I mention that my diagnosis included General Anxiety due to my excessive rumination? LOL. It's all about applying the "skill" appropriately, and not overapplying it.

I commend Sharon for her patience!

If I had a friend who scrutinized my every gesture, I swear I would go nuts!

You seem like a sincere person who wants to change. I laud you for that.

How are the articles coming along?

If you know all that, you should work on how to not get pushy. If she's already mad at you, you'll just make things worse by pushing her. That's logical, right? Even if you continue being persistent, at least learn to not raise your voice or do the persisting in otherwise agressive way.

In some cases it could, but it can just as well mean that she's upset and needs time. Or that she's taking distance because she's afraid of your agressiveness and is wondering of other ways to deal with you so that you won't scare her again. Besides, if her love for you died completely, she'd just leave you, right? No point in taking distance if she'd made up her mind.

What, in your opinion, is a natural course? Couples having fights IS natural. It's fine to be upset when they happen, but you just have to handle them properly. Listen to the other person, don't be too persistent and so on. If you make a mistake and try to fix it without giving the other person space and taking their view and way of handling things in to account, you're likely to make the situation worse for yourself.

It's not that simple. If a woman wanted to know if you can handle your fair share of bills (certain sum) or housework (certain tasks at certain times) or if you were able to have children or not (can be tested), you can answer with a simple yes or no. However, when it comes to things like being able to give love and affection, there are various ways to do it. Even if you are able to give them, are you able to give them in the ways she needs them? You can't know without her telling you but, the thing is, most people can't put these things in to exact words. They just know that something is wrong and missing when the love isn't coming in the way they want it to come.
As an examble, you saw it as a sign of love fading when her messages got shorter, right? What if she saw your pestering as a sign of you no longer loving her the same way? "He's not giving me space or believing my feelings. Someone who loves me wouldn't treat me that way" -kind of thing. Of course, you didn't do it because your love was fading, but she has just as much of a right and reason to think so as you did when her messages got shorter.
If you know you shouldn't do something but do it anyway, isn't that a sign that, at least at that point of your life, you really can't do better? Maybe the women just don't have enough mental strenght and time to wait for the time you will be able to do better.

Even though you told her that you have no sensory issues, she might've thought that you just didn't notice them and that sensory issues were the reason for some of your behavior that she wanted to avoid triggering. It's also possible that she used it as an excuse to not to go to public places with you because she was afraid you'd throw a tantrum and embarras her. Could be something else too, but those are the only two I can think of.

I do "toot my horn" when it comes to my physics theories -- otherwise nobody pays attention. Not that "tooting the horn" helps me at all -- it usually doesn't, as evident from the fact that I still have very few publications and no prospects for professor job unless things drastically change (thats why I decided to go back to graduate school for second Ph.D.)

But I guess "tooting my horn" socially is different. Because in case of my theories I know why people aren't buying them: they are too unconventional. So if I get people to buy something as unconventional as that -- regardless of what I do to achieve it -- that would be an accomplishment. But in case of friendship and dating its different. I don't feel like I am trying to do anything particularly unconventional in friendship/dating department. It ends up that way only because I "look" different which is out of my control. So I feel it is unfair I have to go to any more length than most people do -- which is why I make it a point not to approach women first.

Still, however, even with dating there are situations when I get pushy. In particular, if a woman rejects me, and actually *tells me* she rejected me, then I would start an argument with her as to why she thinks we are incompatible and why she doesn't think I can change and can she please give me a chance, etc. But if she doesn't actually *say* she rejected me -- but, instead, she simply doesn't talk to me, like that woman in my office -- in this case I will be very passive and not start any conversation (although I might talk behind her back to others, as I just talked about her to my male officemate as well as the Chinese girl).

Despite the fact that being overly pushy when a woman rejected me and being passive when she doesn't say anything seem like polar opposites, they are both driven by the same motive: trying to protect my ego. If she says she rejected me then, whatever reasons she has, hurts my ego, so I need to refute those reasons -- and the ultimate proof of my refutting them is for her to give me a second chance, which is why I am begging for one. On the other hand, if a woman never started a conversation with me on the first place, it would hurt my ego if I have to start conversation first, thats why I wait for her to start one for me.

A good example where I went between both extremes is here: viewtopic.php?t=381471 So what happened in this case was that I first confronted her why she wasn't writing me as often. When she did, I felt like its only because I forced her to, so then I stopped talking to her for a month. Then a month later I messaged her again only to find out that she has "moved on" but then I got upset why she wouldn't give me a second chance and started sending her repeated messages begging for one. But no, its not my officemate, its a completely different woman. We never met in person.



Because I am trying to use Uber as a tool of assessing my social skills. I don't need any social skills to tip, but I do need social skills in order to say hello in such a way that would be pleasant -- as measured by my subsequent rating.



The problem with this is that, whatever way it would skew my rating, it would stay with me -- so I will never be able to isolate the "hello" part again.

If there was a way to get a separate Uber account so that on one account I would be saying hello without tipping and on the other account I would be tipping without saying hello, I would totally do it.



Before I proceed, the rating of 4.65 is considered really low as far as Uber is concerned. On the other hand, 4.8 is considered an average rating. My own Uber rating used to be 4.62 when I first noticed it, and it is now 4.82. Thats why I said my Uber rating went from low to average.

If you re-read that message about Uber that I wrote, you will find that I mentioned 4.62 at the beginning and then I mentioned 4.81 much much later -- and the two were separated by a long descirption of how I imporved myself. So maybe thats why you didn't catch that I got 4.81, since it was hidden in the middle of a lengthy message?

In any case, when you said my officemate rating is "going to be" 4.65, were you trying to say that

a) Its too late for me to have good officemate rating, so it will still be low, just not as low as now

Or

b) You never used Uber so you thought 4.65 is a good rating



LOL, that would be funny.



I know marriage requires daily commitment. But the officemate relationship doesn't -- particularly if she never even spoken to me. Thats what triggered me to use the word "silly": why should I treat my interaction with her as a serious relationship or commitment if we haven't even spoken to each other?

Now I know that you can ask me the same question, namely if I think this is silly, why am I still talking about it? Okay let me answer it. So basically, on my end of a line, I don't view it as "silly", I view it as something serious (as evident by the time I spent typing all that). But other people in my department will probalby think its silly. So I don't want them to think of me as silly if I let my obsession that goes in inside to be apparent on the outside.



I haven't heard of this term, but thanks for using it. Maybe if I google search this term I will get some serious psychology papers about this phenomenon that would help me understand things I been puzzled about for so long?

But in any case, let me give you an example as to why I don't like putting plant back into ground as you put it. So this December I exchanged a few messages with a woman on a dating site -- the whole exchange lasted probably two or three days, not any more than that. So during that second (or third) day we talked, she was asking me questions about my life and I responded to them and it was taking like few minutes between her saying something and my response. Then, after my last response, she didn't write back. Then, a week later, she wrote that she wasn't feeling well thats why she didn't write and she will write me when she feels better. Then, after another two weeks, she wrote me a message that she noticed that my age changed from 39 to 40 and she wished me happy birthday. I refrained from thanking her for the birthday wish (it would hurt my ego if I did) but, instead, I sent her a message asking whether its true that she was "not feeling well" or whether, instead, she felt we were incompatible. Few days later she responded to it and said that, in fact, she felt we were incompatible, and she told me why. In particular, she asked me whether I have been to other countries and in response to that I pointed out to her that my profile says I am originally from Russia so obviously Russia counts as another country. To her, it seemed like I insinuated that she was stupid. But you see, I don't even remember it. From what I remember, in my last message I talked a lot about my nostalgy of Minnesota and Michigan and how I wish I was going back to my 20-s etc. So my only guess as to how I might have turned her off was that some women don't like when men dwell on the past too much.

But you see, neither Minnesota nor Michigan is in Russia. I don't even remember that that very message even mentioned Russia -- I literally had to do CTRL+F search on Russia when she mentioned this to me. But sure enough, it "did" mention Russia and yes, it "did" sound quite confrontational. But the reason I didn't remember it is that the message that I wrote to her was really long, since I was trying to reply to each of her questions in detail and there were a lot of them. Now, my mind was overfocused on Minnesota/Michigan -- and not on Russia -- so I re-read the Minnesota/Michigan part several times over. But I felt like I still had to respond to the Russia part too, before I could send that message to her, since I am a perfectionist and I like to respond to everything. But since I have studies to do and I already feel self conscious about spending too much time on the internet, I was in a hurry. So I didn't re-read what I wrote about Russia (given that I already spent several minutes re-reading the Minnesota/Michigan part of my message). And that is why I ended up *not remembering* I even mentioned Russia -- much less that I was confrontational about it. But then when she said Russia was the way I turned her off, then I ran CTRL+F and found that Russia part of that message and was like "oh yeah, it does sound quite confrontational and rude".

In any case, this example is a good illustration as to why I act the way I act: if I were to "leave the seed in the ground" in the above scenario, I would have never known that Russia had anything to do with it, so I wouldn't have an opportunity to correct that misunderstanding. But now that she told me its Russia, I sent her 4 lengthy messages explaining the above to her and asking for second chance. She haven't read those yet, I doubt she will change her mind since most people don't. But still, I want to at least *try* to get her to change her mind. But if she didn't mention it was about Russia then how would I ever fix the issue I wouldn't even be aware of? And I don't see how it would fix itself either -- given that, in answer to my question, she actually *said* she doesn't think we are compatible.

Also, there is a very good possibility that with women other than her I also said something equally rude that I didn't even notice. But, unlike her, those other women never told me about it, they just became "busy" (kinda like this particular woman "wasn't feeling well" until she finally decided to tell me what it was). So if those other women have reasons not to talk to me yet, being unaware of those reasons, I would keep trying to talk to them, I would feel like a fool. Thats why I don't want to talk to them unless they talk to me first -- since them talking to me first would be an ultimate proof of the fact that they don't have anything against me. Now, if they do have something against me -- and I find out what it is -- then sure, I would initiate PLENTY of conversations, and even FORCE those conversations onto the women -- but those conversations would be ABOUT that misunderstaning that they have (nothing else, until that misunderstanding is cleared). But talking about other topics while leaving that misunderstanding hanging would just make me feel like a fool.



In my case if people *don't* show me common courtesy, then I would find it upsetting and might even obsess about it; but if they do show said courtesy, I just take it for granted. After all, being shown courtesy simply means that I am being treated as part of general population, which is neither good nor bad. But *not* being shown courtesy means that I am being singled out as someone worse, which is upsetting.



When people "bundle" all the negatives about me together it feels like character assassination, thats why it hurts so much.



Actually, thats what I been suspecting that young women in general -- not just this officemate -- are scared I would do something. Like I noticed when I walk down the street some women cross the street. But the point is that I never in my life did anything physical to anybody, thats why it is so frustrating when people act like I might.

Now, the example that you gave is just one isolated example. What makes you think that all shy people are like that. Or, conversely, what makes you think all murderers are shy? Maybe there are some outgoing ones? So it seems like a "positive confirmation bias". People don't like shy people, so when a shy person happened to be a bad guy people are like "see we were right".

I mean, do you have any *logical* reason to believe why there should be a connection between shyness and violence?!



Well, I admit to being co-dependent. I basically need people to help me overcome all the scars from the past due to Asperger.



But you said yourself he didn't like you. So that justifies your reaction. And the reason I act the way I do is because I feel like women don't like me.



Did you say it in the context of discussing my post with your colleagues? Or was it a different context?

In any case I probably would have reacted similarly -- minus the "leave the plant in the ground" part (I probably would have asked). But if I couldn't ask then yes I would think "is it a joke or are they trying to put barriers".

Here is something similar that happened to me recently. So that Chinese girl whom I asked to talked to my officemate, sent me a text message

"Happy winter break or Merry Christmas! (not necessarily friends only have good times)"

So this made me think what exactly did she mean by the example in parentheses? I can think of two possibilities:

1) Maybe she wanted me to feel better about friends other than her -- since I kept complaining about not having friends

2) Maybe she was making it clear that she, personally, wasn't my friend

I personally wish it was 1 -- but I keep wondering would it be "2". So I actually asked her this few days later. But I didn't ask "is it 1 or 2". Rather I asked "what do you mean". So what she responded seemed to allign with 1, but I am still wondering whether 2 is also a factor, she just didn't mention it.

(WARNING: trigger for some folks.) Just wanted to reply to this quickly to clear up a misunderstanding. I do not see an association between those two at all. (To the contrary, I can think of a prominent serial killer who was quite outgoing). I did not have stranger danger as a child (nor even as an adult), so it's fairly amazing I haven't been hurt. (Unfortunately many others in my family have been.) My comment was that I was amused by the idea that somehow I had an intuition (not based on shyness, but some other unnamed trait), but my example shows exactly the opposite: I approached this co-worker, even pushed the issue. Although I am told often that folks see something unpredictable and dangerous under my sweet veneer. I can't say I disagree.

In this case I probably misunderstood your earlier point. It seemed to me you were saying that my officemate perceived the danger because I am shy. If my understanding is correct, then I am back with the question as to why shyness should be related to danger. If my understanding is incorrect, then can you clarify what were you actually saying?

Ok...Now I know what Marknis would look like if he had a Physics PhD

QFT you continue to intellectualise and strategise what should be an purely organic process

1. The girl likes how you look (test number 1)
2. The girl likes how you dress (test number 2)
3. The girl likes your hygiene/grooming/smell (test number 3)

Only after these will she be concerned about
4. She likes how you sound - are you paying her attention? (test number 4)
5. She likes what you say - are you polite and respectful? (test number 5)
6. Do you have a job that she can comfortably tell her friends

Your physics theories and intellectual standing are going to come a distant 9 or 10 on this list

As far as my mom is concerned, I pass test number 1 and fail tests number 2 and 3. I guess I don't know whether I can trust her regarding test number 1 since nobody else tells me this, so she might be biased. But as far as tests number 2 and 3, here are the things she has issues with:

a) I don't cut my nails
b) My nails are dirty as well
c) I don't brush my hair
d) My pants are unzipped
e) I have wax in my ears
f) I either forget to put on a belt or I don't tie it tight enough so my pants are sitting too low, similar to black people
g) My shoes are untight
h) I tuck in my shirt at the front but I forget to tuck it in at the back, so it sticks out (she calls it "tail")
i) I don't brush my teeth and she claims she can see it when I talk
j) The clothes I wear don't always match together
k) Some of my shirts aren't professional enough

But, going back to point 1, here is something my mom doesn't say but other people do: I get older. So what if I fix all those points regarding 2 and 3, what can I do with all that time that gone by? I mean I was literally unware of those things back in my 20-s so I missed the best part of my life.

In any case I think its unfair that the tests go like that in sequence So basically what it means is that, someone who can't pass tests 1, 2 and 3 is not even a human, so that nothing else matters. Its like a character assassination. Why do the looks outweigh what is inside the person?!

Dude! (firstly sorry for the parochial way of addressing you)
I think I have diagnosed your problem. Please fix these and be consistent. Even when you are not expecting to meet a girl just make this part of your daily routine. For example mothers always say wear clean underwear for a reason, one day you will be caught without your pants. Likewise one day the girl of your dreams will wander in your orbit so be ready....



For a girl looks are the first thing that catches their attention. Any NT girl who tells you looks are not important are lying. For men without looks they spend money on points 2 and 3 (particularly clothes) and compensate. If you are rich, male and single you advertise your wealth like a peacock.

My mom wasn't telling me about my pants, but something she *was* telling me about that is along similar lines was to put bed sheets one on top of the other neatly when I get up. I never understood why, and she never explained it either. All she was doing is telling me that this is "something to be done". I go to school to a different state from her, but when I visit her in summer and winter break, she would walk into my room, see the messy bed, and interrupt my studies to make me put it in order. And I wouldn't ever know why she cares.

I guess from your point of view it is for the situation when I get lucky and a girl decides to visit me? But my mom never told me thats the case. She just keeps insisting I do it, period.



Well, it is unfair to judge someone by looks. I think internal qualities are far more important.

Or do girls assume that looks reflect internal qualities? If so, what are their reasons for assuming this?



Well, I am not rich. My only income is teaching assistantship which is 1500 a month, and I pay 500 for a dorm. Also I am bad with money so I have few thousand credit card loan that my mom helps me pay off. But I guess, since I have my mom that helps me pay off my credit cards, I am "rich" in this sense? As far as my mom goes, she classifies herself as low middle class.

In any case, the money situation is the reason why I don't buy new clothes. This is also the reason I don't shave: when I buy those things to shave with, they no longer work after I use them a couple of times because of all that hair that is stuck in them. Buying new ones every day would be quite costly -- and going to barbor to shave is costly as well. Well I guess given my credit card and my mom that pays it off, I can try and do it, but then my mom will be even more angry about my credit card loan than she already is.

In any case, are you saying that girls logic is that they figure out I am bad with money based on the fact that I don't buy new clothes and then they decide I wouldn't be able to support a family? I guess one problem with this logic is that it would cost me nothing to tuck in my shirt for example. So why would the fact that I don't bother tucking in the shirt would mean I have money problem?

Realistically attractive symmetry is a biological indicator of good health/virility. Attractive people have symmetry whereby you take one half of their face and flip it over you have a mirror image. Try it with Brad Pitt.

So good looks advertises to a girl that you have good genes. This is often a deal-breaker for many NT women.



I would (on a teaching stipend) use my money on expensive clothes/grooming (like aftershave). Basically spruce myself up and put myself in places where single available women would see me. Get in the habit of tucking shirt, girls like men who are neat and look after themselves. Even "bad boys" who carry a grunge look wear designer clothes and have this way of being fashionably unkept (although I don't think it would matter as you wouldn't connect with a girl looking for a rough time with a bikie/punk) .

Developing a positive attitude toward personal appearance will make you immensely attractive.

Regarding the looks thing, the way I see it is that if someone doesn't do very easy and simple yet still necessary things like brush their hair, it's hard to believe they'd have the skill or the motivation to do other important things either. One hygiene/appearance mistake is easy to overlook, but when there are plenty it either makes me think that the person is lazy or unable to properly take care of themselves. Sometimes the later can't be helped of course, but most people wouldn't want a partner like that who they'd have to remind about the simple every day things like they were talking to a child.

My response, approx 2½ weeks later. Part 1.

I would totally do that also. Musing: I think I am in the wrong field.


Ah, yes, I recalled the first number to two decimals and not its significance. I have a reading disability relative to my intellect.

b) [I] never used Uber so [I] thought 4.65 is a good rating


Ah, I am very sensitive to relationship; one might say "too" sensitive. I take all relationships very seriously, even the casual ones. It can be problematic for me. I would absolutely go out of my way to establish good will with an officemate and would consider it a "daily commitment". In my 20s I often failed (and didn't understand why); I am better at it now (mimic NT slow and steady), but still fail with some (my ASD intensity apparent).


I am working to figure out when and how to address the discord between my perceptions and concerns and those of others (often with very different perceptions and concerns). I'll let you know in another 10-20 years how it goes. Teasing: I am working on "you don't hear that? I'm sorry you have an average sense of hearing. You're not embarrassed by that?" "you don't smell that? I'm sorry you have an average sense of smell. You're not embarrassed by that?". "you aren't thinking or concerned about that? I'm sorry you live vaguely and heedlessly. You're not embarrassed by that?"


Yes, there are times to clarify. Can you think of an example where you let something be and that was beneficial? It goes all ways of course: times we attend to something and it's helpful, or it's not. times we "let it be" and it's helpful, or it's not. I think I tend to over-attend to things and my NT husband tends to over-let it be. Balance!


Please send any "excess" courtesy you receive my way. I am in need. Actually, I am working on disregarding the discourteous and turning my attention towards the courteous.


I understand. There are people who enjoy my intensity and people who abhor it. I can only do so much to modulate it, so this will continue to the end of my life. I seek to surround myself (at least in mind) with those who value it. Wishing you find a way to similarly "protect" yourself.