Not Aspie enough!

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Aspie logical linguistic strength thrives on fine points of controversy, but the touchy-feely support-group mentality abhors unsettling controversy and instead cultivates the bogus and vapid non confrontational diversity of perspectives.

I think that we are quite specific in mind as to which conventional social restraints are particularly chafing us. Again, does anyone yet follow me any further from that starting point?

chafing? That sounds like sandpaper.

about the controversy idea.

I don't think I see taking ideas and logically extrapolating them to some extreme - for new insight or just for fun, as particularily controversial. My NT friends who followed the conversation from beginning to end, can usually see the point, but might also find it controversial. Especially things like starting with finite resources on planet earth and ending with population control...

But I find in the touchy feely counselling session, a lot of conflicting and ambiguous view points are put forward. And I don't tolerate ambiguity well. I can talk about it, and I can tolerate it to some degree, but it frequently makes me feel uncomfortable. I like to know "this is how you get it right", not "this is how you get it right some of the time". What about the rest of the time? However life is more about "getting it right some of the time". I get very good at being uncomfortable, however NT friends often wish I was less anxious.

I´m sorry if I am puting words into your mouth, but I am trying to see behing whats behind this shiny wrapping paper that you put over your topics. I am trying to see if there is anything behind this that is interesting, as it appears so, hence my inquiries. A worthy idea can be presented in a brown paper bag and still retain its worth.

I don´t see how this positive endorsement of the "postitive acceptance" campaign is any different from what I am proposing. Is it not the dissemenation of ideas that aspies are worthy of being recognized for who they are and not what they cannot do? And, also, I am aware that you are trying to organize, but in what fasion? As I stated, I don´t believe that organization will do any good without acceptance, as that is the problem that i feel that bothers a lot of us. What good exactly will "organization" do? People just don´t "get it" that we don´t interact the same way, so we need to show that its not something that´s "all in our head". Acceptance that this is something that isn´t all in our head would relieve a lot of the discontentment that I have with the current attitude towards my so called "anti-social" behavior.

And, yes I do agree that we all recognize this "chafing" that you speak about, but as I have said, this is how I have learned to cope with that, I don´t see how taking it any further would help things. In what manner should we "take if further" exactly? And what exactly is it that we should undertake? Are you not simply providing the passive insight that you argue against?

And, yes, I do read a great deal between the lines, because I can´t "see" them. Isn´t that part of being an aspie? Trying to find out what people mean because you can´t "see" it?

Yes, Wobbegong, I see most of my life in your posts. I also don´t agree with Cohen´s interpretations of his work, but I think that his work has great value if we can put the proper interpretations on it.







I was aware that your opinion was different from that of the specialists, I was just pointing out how your own experiences go against their interpretations. Also, I do believe that you are missing something here.





His explanation is that the cause may be because we are "less socially focused" and we "lack social interest". Isn´t this just another innate characteristic which explains why we are "mindblind"?? He is already going into a circle as any explanation used to explain mindblindness ultimately ends up being attributed to an innate characteristic, something beyond our control. If we are less socially focused, why is that? Is it by choice? I don´t see how it is. Humans are social creatures, made for socializing. If this is the result, then mindblindness is also an innate characteristic which explains that. Ultimately, unless he describes something that is within our control, then all explanations lead back to the same thing, namely, this is just who we are when we get to the bottom of things. If he would just ask an aspie as Wobbegong said, then he would get a lot further then his theories that he presents.

I have been trying for most of my life to pick up these things with no success. I have tried for years to pick up these skills, not just months. Maybe i am hopeless, but this is not from a lack of trying, and certainly not from a lack of effort. If this is different from anybodies elses experiences, then I do not claim my point of view to be theirs, but i am sure that I have been trying for most of my life to fit a square peg into a circular hole. I am sure that if this was something that I could "learn", then I would have learned it by now. Of course a belief is never proof of anything, but I don´t see a way around my logical argument above.

But I'm not the proponent of any positive acceptance campaign, any more than disabled status recognition. Although I do see counter-gossip campaigns as potentially useful in thwarting bullying. But even that was a digression, and I am still struggling to return to topic.

Back on topic?

Hmm, the topic was a little about what you don't want and not much about what you do want or do expect.

What do you see as "characteristically Aspie interaction", or "Aspie" culture, values and priorities? Do you think that all Aspies have, somehow, the same life values and priorities?

The second paragraph lacks sufficient grammatical structure to make sense to me.

Specifically "contend with and the name 'Aspergers'" - um contend with what? Aspergers how what? Are you trying to say (my attempt at translation) that based on the other threads that you think that we (mostly) equate Aspergers with Emotional Intelligence. And instead you were expecting or seeking (discussion of?) "alienation and dissident values" which you equate with Aspergers?

Could I suggest that Aspergers is a good deal more complicated than that. That we might get a very high proportion of people who feel emotionally or socially incompetent, here, because this is an emotionally distant way of communciating. If you get upset, you can walk way until you feel better. You're not confronted by a person in your face, right now, so that you can't think.

Also Aspies that don't have many of these problems might be busy with full time jobs or running their own businesses and might not have time to browse a forum such as this, and discuss philosophy. Ie the ones that have learnt how to deal with people successfully on a every day basis aren't here.

I'd like you to elaborate or be specific about what you see as "Aspie culture, values and priorities", and explain how these are significantly different to anyone else's. I'd also like you to explain more about "alienation and dissident values", are you trying to suggest all aspies are alienated or have dissident values? Wouldn't this be more a reflection on how well difference is tolerated in their society? So a society that is fairly accepting or even welcoming of diversity might be a lot more comfortable for an aspie (or anyone) to live in than one that is very rigid in how things should be done. Ironically many aspies like to be rigid in how things are done but don't cope well in a society where the rigidity is imposed from outside and doesn't make any sense to them, personally.

Once I have figured out what you want, then maybe I can experiment with ideas for methods for putting it into practice. I think with this format and the geographical distances involved we are a bit limited to discussion.

i find it difficult to accept the "lack of theory of mind" idea. i don't really think that the difference in my manner of interaction than that of others comes down to me not being aware that others are capable of knowing, thinking and believing things different to that which i know, think and believe.
can you define exactly what your understanding of "mindblind" is, for clarity?



this statement in itself to me seems to show that you have a theory of mind, and are thus not "mindblind". you understand that others have their own thoughts, knowledge and beliefs, points of view that may differ with yours.

Have you been following this topic, wobbegong? Not that the premise of distinct implicit Aspie dissident values or even claims of culture are actually anything new. -Even though, indeed, of course, there can really never be any uniform consensus. Is there a specific question anywhere in there?

I've been trying to follow it.

I think a crucial bit I missed might have been this:

"But does likewise apply to Asperger's? Some indeed do advance the claim, by extolling manifest Aspie values such as candor, even tendencies to implicit universaism, and contempt for conventionally heteronymous small talk, endless manipulation, headgames and social climbing, etc.. "

So my best guess is you think Aspie values are for truthfulness, contempt for meaningless smalltalk, and contempt for social politics. I can't figure out what "implicit universaism" might be.

The closest I could get was "implicit universalism" but it was usually paired with "of something" ie "implicit universalism of the global economy" or "implicit universalism of human rights". I vaguely remember shakespeare being described as having "universal themes" of things that remain the same across cultures, and time. Like "love", "hate", "revenge", "poor vs rich", "war", and "personal growth" ie "learning from your mistakes".

The best guess at what you meant, based on your context is you might be talking about a tendancy for an aspie person (perhaps) to assume what is important to them is important to everyone. Well, I don't think I've done that since I was about four, I suppose. Like I will consider that everyone might like chocolate because I do, but I don't assume it, and now that I'm ancient, I know it not to be true. I know for sure that not everyone believes in human rights for everyone, or even can agree what they should be, if they do pretend to believe in them.

Did I have any specific questions? Well I'm a bit new to the concept of "aspie values, and aspie culture". I don't know how I could be more specific than I already was in the previous post. I asked you to explain what you meant. I asked you if you think all aspies should somehow have the same values?

I admit if any club is very strong on the game of one-upmanship and only looking after the club president's closest friends instead of all the members, that I don't stay long. But I have found in practice, that any club that does this doesn't last very long. For instance if you have a club with forty members and only five benefit from being in the club, the other 35 will quit.

Universalism is any doctrine or sentiment of equality and even brotherhood, by some seen as implicit in typical Aspie obliviousness, disregard or even sheer naked contempt for all the subtle signs and heteronymous norms by which people conventionally rank, exclude, disclude and distance one another. Typically, Aspies are observed to willingly talk to just about anyone, even however candidly, just not small talk.

But, of course, no one can be obliged to share values. If only ever there are, indeed, any shared values, either explicitly or even implicitly in preferences and behaviors, conceivably might any different and perhaps even effective and stimulating social paradigm emerge or be forged therefrom. And that is my question.

Huh? I see two observations and no question.

Guesing again: Are you asking if Aspies have shared values, shared preferences and shared behaviours that together might result in some sort of social solidarity?

I thought that might be the case when I first joined here. I thought, bewdy, a place where everyone is like me and I don't have to make all that effort to be polite anymore, people will know I'm like them and don't intend to offend.

But no. I jump in post what I think about what ever subject interests me and loads of people are offended. And when I explain they've got no reason to be offended, some are ok about that and some just get angry because they misunderstood in the first place. So what I learned out of that is that Aspies' Aspieness pisses off other Aspies - especially the ones who have learnt the rules (their rules) of social etiquette. I find this very frustrating.

I also find fundamental differences - I'd call it different degrees or intensities of Aspieness. For instance some (aspie?) people don't care at all what other people think of them in any situation and they see no value in being polite ever. Others have learnt that they get what they want quicker and with less frustration, if they can be polite and considerate of other people. Ie do what they can to make other people's life a little easier or more pleasant. Still more others do like to keep certain significant people in their lives happy so they have an even stronger motivation to do what they can to please these people, but they might not care what others think or if they are happy.

It's true that we can't always please everyone or anyone, but there is a lot we can do with basic politeness and consideration to smooth our way through life, even if it seems pretty much pointless fluff to us.

Maybe an easier place to start is with how we dress. I find that I'd rather wear clean comfortable, loose fitting clothes appropriate to the climate, than things that "look good" or "look businesslike" or the "latest fashion". I tend to hang out with people who feel the same way, they don't usually notice or comment on what I'm wearing and I don't comment on what they're wearing. I might notice if they upgrade to something that doesn't look like bum crack hanging out but generally trackies, jeans, tshirts etc are fine with me. I find business suits or high fashion extremely uncomfortable and avoid wearing stuff like this as much as possible.

I'd be willing to speculate that most Aspies would feel this way about clothing, except perhaps the ones with special interests in fashion. And even then, they might know all about a particular fashion but have zero interest in wearing it unless it is comfortable...

Well, the way that it has been defined, and how I define "mindblindness", is not a lack of awareness that others are feeling something different, it is the lack of ability to decipher what those feelings and intentions are correctly. I very much understand that other people have different feelings from my own, its just that I can´t figure out what they are, and often assume wrongly what their intentions are. I often take a logical approach to figuring out things that people grasp intuitively, thus my interpretations are off-base, as I beleive that we are illogical creatures when it comes to socialization. I suppose that this is different on the internet also as in these cases we are explicitly expressing our state of mind exactly. If someone tells me their state of mind explicitly then I can understand, but if I have to infer this from their actions or behavior I am totally lost. Hence the need for aspies to communicate in a very direct manner, which makes some people a little uncomfortable, because they are able to understand such things without being as direct. Does this help?

"conceivably might any different and perhaps even effective and stimulating social paradigm emerge or be forged therefrom."


Finally!! !! The question you are proposing!! !! It only took 3 pages to get here. Go back and read your first post. There is nothing even remotely close to this question located in there. You only vaguely touch on the topic of different styles of communication but never say for what purpose. You have advocated organizing, but never said for what purpose. You have touched on different parts of this question but never put it all together. You were also advocating to put something into practice, which still makes no sense as you have to figure out the new paradigm before it can be put into practice.

But, this question is still not complete. Of course we could create a new social paradigm out of common values that exist, but, what would be the purpose of such a social paradigm? Effective and stimulating in what manner? Your question is open ended in such a fashion that it still makes no sense. It is like if I asked someone, "so, how would I make this better?". "Make it better in what way??" would be the natural response. Someone says to play a "good" song on the piano. "Well, what is your definition of good?" would be the first question. I tell a co-worker to make a program more "effective", he will naturally ask, "effective in what way?". A new paradigm cannot be forged without the goal it is intended to achieve in mind, otherwise you are trying to build a bridge to nowhere. I tell a man, "build a bridge", he will naturally ask, "build a bridge to where?". One cannot start building the bridge until he knows where it should lead. So, what exactly is your goal for this new paradigm? What exactly is the criteria for it being "stimulating" and "effective"? What is this new paradigm supposed to achieve? We cannot start contributing ideas until we know where this train should be heading.

There is also a problem with what you posit as a criteria for such a "paradigm" to arise. You say, "if only ever there are, indeed, any shared values", but claim that you have observed that there are no such unversal values in other posts here (as made by your observations of the aspie group you attended). I´m sorry, but it seems as if you are the one who is not being clear about things, so it is natural that confusion will arise from others. We cannot get back to discussing a topic that was never proposed!

jonathan79

what is the purpose?

Well I'd like this (but I can't see it happening for reasons outlined in previous post)

I'd like to quit pretending to be normal in social situations. I'd like to quit evaluating everything I want to say for possible offence before I say it. I'd like to quit asking "how are you" when really I don't want to know, and most people are trained to lie when answering anyway. I'd like to drop "please and thank you". I'd like to be able to say "I want" without being thought rude or greedy. I'd like to be able to wear comfy clothes all the time and not be thought "unprofessional" or "incompetent" or "poor". I'd like to get the same service when I wear comfy clothes as I get when I wear a business suit.