THINGS NT'S DO THAT JUST DON'T MAKE SENSE!

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JakJak
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03 Jul 2015, 5:22 am

nurseangela wrote:

Fnord, there's a difference between being "blunt" and being a bully. All you are is a bully and if you think that's something to be proud of then that's up to you. The best way to treat a bully is to ignore them. All you're really doing is making Aspie's look bad. You didn't break me. I know who my real friends are - and a good number are Aspie's who I'd do anything for. You'll never be blessed to know what a friendship like that with an NT is like because you choose to run off a person before you even get the chance to really know them. You're so busy in trying to break the other person down just in order to build yourself up. How is that working for you out in the real world? The good thing about what happened here is that I still like Aspie's. You're going to have your few bad apples, just like with NT's, but inside most people are good. So I'll probably be back at some point - to try and make new friends again. I just need to go recharge my batteries for awhile with my real friends.

Moderators, you can close this thread, if you choose, as I will not be answering it anymore.

I haven't seen any bullying. I don't like when this word is misused, because it makes it harder for people who are actually bullied to speak up. Also, real bullying should never be ignored.

Spiderpig
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03 Jul 2015, 6:47 pm

On the other hand, being ignored could be part of the definition of genuine bullying. A bully worth their salt always knows how to get all blame to fall on the victim.

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LyraLuthTinu
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03 Jul 2015, 6:49 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

. . .
You haven't told me why the person you were speaking with was actually upset. I'm thinking--perhaps you were too blunt? I don't think it's lying when one is diplomatic instead of blunt, by the way. There are many ways to say the same thing.

I wish your husband would allow you time to reflect. . . .

Usually the upset comes because there was a facial expression or vocal tone that caused my words to mean something I didn't intend. What in my head is confusion translates to NT as impatience or irritability. What in my head is tired or achy or maybe even impatience with myself or my inability to communicate as I mean to is taken personally by the NT and used as ammo to pick a fight. And if I try to take time to reflect on what I'm about to say + the tone and volume of my voice as I say it + the context that NT might see it in vs. my perspective of it (usually in the moment) + how many other people are around and whether or not they're paying attention - - -the moment has passed and it's too late to say anything and NT hubby thinks I'm being evasive and/or disrespectful to not answer right away and he loses his patience and often his temper.

And if he read this conversation he would conflate KraftieKortie to my New Internet Boyfriend and expect me to look for a chance for a RL hookup.

He doesn't trust me. To me it's obviously ridiculous, two people on the internet discussing troubling issues doesn't invariably lead to an affair. :roll:

Even if KraftieKortie were available . . . I've read enough threads to know he's in a relationship that he's happy with even though it isn't 100% flawless. I have every intention of staying with my NT hubby until death do us part, too. But he doesn't trust me. Which is another THING NT'S DO THAT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE--They get jealous and mistrusting for all the wrong reasons. Noticing that what a person says is often different from what s/he does is a reason to mistrust. Knowing that they've made mistakes in the past doesn't, necessarily. It is possible even for Aspies to learn from mistakes.

ETA: I also agree with Spiderpig. Lots of his/her words about bullying and double standards also make sense to me, where NT's words don't all.

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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 141 of 200
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You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)
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LyraLuthTinu
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03 Jul 2015, 7:01 pm

Evam wrote:

LyraLuthTinu wrote:

Assuming ...
Assuming that I feel other than the way I say I feel, because they think they can read my body language and facial expressions better than I can read my own heart mind and soul.
Assuming ...
etc.

In my opinion many Aspergers, even if they are not really alexithymic, dont really get if there is some ambivalence in their feelings, and believe that their emotional state is plain and simple and one. That is wrong. There is most of the time some ambivalence. E.g. an Aspie friend of mine is sometimes getting very loud when she is agitated, but when she is very much focused on what she is saying and what she says is quite good reasoning, she is irritated if asked why she is so "angry". She does not realize that her voice has become so loud, and that she cant control the volume of her voice because of the feeling that come up with the subject (e.g. a talk with a lawyer about the custody she had lost). Although "angry" might be not the correct word (exited, plus anxious would have got it better), it was O.K. that the person asked her about her emotional state (The lawyer was by the way on the spectrum, too, and by the end of the conversation, worked herself up into a true aversion against my friend.)

Understanding for the motivations and situational background of others comes hand in hand with the understanding for one s own motivations and background. If one understanding is underdevelopped, the other one is underdevelopped, too.

This oversimplification or unification of the emotional state is also often taking place when Aspergers judge about another persons feelings, and while this can be a strength (because you might detect more easily a contradiction between what is said and what is otherwise expressed), it can also lure you into thinking that the other is inauthentic, while in fact it is nothing but ambivalence.

Sometimes people (NTs and people on the spectrum, and the latter rather more, for reasons that are obvious) just make a negative comment about someone else s feelings, because they are angry about what you have said or how you have behaved before, or because they are irritated about your reaction, but actually dont know exactly where to put it. Remember that the facial expressions of Aspergers are generally flatter or for some or in some situations also far too exaggerated, and that many reactions to what was said or what happens are simply missing, and this alone is quite irritating. So it is normal that people are trying a guess much more often with Aspergers than with non-Aspergers.

What might play in it (and again: more so for people on the spectrum than for NTs) is curiosity and fun. People who are often irritated themselves about the feedbacks others give them, are compelled to see how you are reacting, and see you winding. Sounds more sadistic than it is, there is some negativity in it, but most of it can be better understood as a defense and as a true inquiry, something similar to the roleplay a neurotypical toddler does.

I would take in the feedback and consider it a bit, and ask from time to time what makes the other think that you are this or that. But as for an Asperger it is surely difficult to evaluate the validity of a particular feedback, you neednt care too much about it either, or only more, if you generally appreciate the judgement of that particular person.

So basically, even though you don't even know me, you know that I don't really know how I really feel, but the NT's reading my microexpressions do?

Thanks. I'm not that alexithymic. I analyse feelings constantly and study them like a special interest. I know more about psychology than the NT's who talk down to me--most of whom think that all of psychology is worthless junk science.

I do take in the feedback and consider it carefully, but asking for further clarification **does not work** in my situation. I just get told off for being stupid or disrespectful or manipulative. Also if I'm still face-to-face with the NTs in question, stopping to reflect and consider and analyse is taken as further proof that I'm either truly stupid, or deviously trying to act stupid as a cover for clever manipulation. Or sometimes even just plain bad and evil. I try to put myself in other peoples' shoes and consider their perspective, but I can't do it fast enough for them. They get mad at me for stultifying the flow of their NT conversation.

Fnord
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03 Jul 2015, 7:11 pm

JakJak wrote:

nurseangela wrote:

Fnord, there's a difference between being "blunt" and being a bully. All you are is a bully and ...

I haven't seen any bullying. I don't like when this word is misused, because it makes it harder for people who are actually bullied to speak up. Also, real bullying should never be ignored.

I know people who seem to consider someone who disagrees with them to be a "bully", especially when that someone isn't intimidated into changing his or her mind.

I've even known women who have called me "mean" and "rude" for saying "no" to their requests.

I guess that they figure that no one would want to be called these things, and that the only way to not be called these things is to capitulate and submit by agreeing and saying "yes".

It's kinda like using tears to get out of a ticket, except that name-calling is more aggressive than passive, and more obvious on-line than fake tears.

Sequoia
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03 Jul 2015, 9:41 pm

What doesn't make sense to me is how some NT's act nice to you even though they really don't like you. I live in the Southern United States, and people, especially women, can come up to you all sweet and say hi to you like they're your best friend, and meanwhile they have a look on their face that says, "Oh brother, I gotta hang out with this straightie again." Or sometimes they might be smiling at you, but I can't see that because in addition to being Aspie, I'm very nearly totally blind, so verbal communication sails right over my head.

Also, if you accidentally say something wrong, they won't tell you so you can clear things up with them, and instead they will just start avoiding you. It's far better to let someone you care about know if they're being obnoxious rather than assume that they will instinctively know these things. I only found out about Asperger's very recently, so a big part of it was probably that if I didn't know, neither did they, and I'm high-functioning, so they assume I'm NT and expect me to behave as such. This is why I explain to anyone I'm thinking about getting close to so they can be prepared. It's just really hard when they act like everything is groovy when what they're really thinking is, "Shut the *** up, woman!! !"

Sorry for writing a novel here, but I wasn't sure whether to write this here or create another post. Ever since I figured out the hard way that you can't always take an NT's words at face value, I get really anxious because when someone says something, I'm never sure if they mean it literally or if there's a hidden meaning there, and then I will tend to obsess over it, and then I have to call an NT friend or family member and ask them to interpret for me, like I speak a different language.

Spiderpig
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04 Jul 2015, 6:50 am

At least in my experience, neurotypicals seem to abhor clear and precise language, and will go out of their way to mess it up, and to prevent you from using it effectively with them. And, of course, if you object, you'll be considered a smartass and dealt with accordingly.

JakJak
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04 Jul 2015, 7:34 am

Fnord wrote:

I have experienced this far too many times with people online. I don't like it. They speak as if rejection is a type of abuse. People who do this never even seem interested in getting to know me. They just seem to want to be with someone, and I happen to be there. :roll:

kraftiekortie
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04 Jul 2015, 7:50 am

I think there's an historical basis, in part , for NT's being reluctant to use direct language. I don't believe NT's necessarily have an intrinsic desire to be deceitful.

In many societies other than than "western-oriented" societies), the "rules" for social interaction are even more labyrinthine than our own.

In many parts of Africa, for instance, one has to ask about the other person and the other person's family within a dialogue which could last five minutes at minimum. To merely ask "How are you?" is considered the height of rudeness. Tourists are seen as being quite rude if they just come up to one and ask directions. At minimum, they must say something like "Good evening, I hope you and your family are doing well," then ask the directions.

It has to do with not inciting wars. In the old days, people made war based on the slightest pretext. It's not conducive to leisure to be constantly "at war." Therefore, people were taciturn when it came to direct language.

slave
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06 Jul 2015, 12:25 am

Fnord wrote:

Through the last few years, I've collected these observations regarding the Neuro-Typical personality. Some may be applicable in more cases than others, but I've personally observed all of these in many people, and under many different circumstances.

Things that people with Neuro-Typical personalities do that just don't make sense.

• When they see someone reading a book, wearing headphones, or working hard at some solitary task, they get the sudden urge to have a conversation with that person.

• They apologize for other people's hurt feelings, but never for causing them to be hurt.

• They rarely, if ever, express themselves directly and in a manner that can be easily and unambiguously interpreted by anyone who knows the same language.

• They are more concerned with being believed than with being truthful.

• They are more focused on winning an argument than on being right.

• They are so socially adept that they get promoted into positions for which they have no practical knowledge or skills, and no one seems to care.

• They are unable to comprehend why their last-minute requests can not be fulfilled right away, no matter how many times they remind others of who they are, whom they know, and what they do for a living.

• They are unable to separate the concept of "Privileges" from the concept of "Rights", and they often conflate the two.

• They ask questions that they already know the answers to, just to have something to talk about.

• They believe that anyone who interprets what they say in a literal way is either being a smartass or just plain stupid.

More to come ...

• They are more concerned with being believed than with being truthful. :!:

WELL SAID

slave
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06 Jul 2015, 12:42 am

nurseangela wrote:

Fnord wrote:

LyraLuthTinu wrote:

.nurse angela, I'm pretty sure Fnord is operating on the assumption you may have [url=http:\\isnt.autistics.org\dsn-staff.html.]Staff personality disorder[/url].

[...]

No, he isn't. But thanks for the link!

I read this entire thread.
Fnord was not being a bully.
He doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him, of course, but you have been taking all of these comments about NT's as if they were comments about YOU....they are not.
I regard that as being inordinately self-focussed on your part, given the obvious context of the discussion.
You chose to adopt the perspective that you were in an adversarial situation....you were not.
Fnord NEVER addressed any of these comments to any individual.

Fnord
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06 Jul 2015, 2:15 am

Thanks to everybody who supported me in this thread. I have posted the entire list in Random Discussion, and with a slightly modified title and disclaimer.

I doubt that nurseangela will be back. There are just too many people who stand together and point out her mistaken claims.

Otherwise, her behavior just don't make sense!

:lol:

WhiteGalacticWiz
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06 Jul 2015, 3:07 am

"I say we all hold hands and have one last midnight as brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal. "

-Rust Cohle

Spiderpig
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07 Jul 2015, 11:45 am

What deal?

TheBadguy
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12 Jul 2015, 3:00 pm

Here's one that I cannot seem to understand or grasp. Making obligations with other people beforehand.

How hard is it to say, "Hey I am sorry I have prior engagements with The Bad Guy," instead of forcing me to rearrange our plans for the day?

AraleNorimaki
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12 Jul 2015, 10:27 pm

I don't understand why some NT's insist on talking when there's nothing important to be said. I used to be a cashier and having to participate in small talk over and over again was the worst thing about it. I wasn't crazy about dress code, either. I couldn't understand how leaving my shirt untucked or wearing a hoodie with words on it prevented me from doing my job. Needless to say, I wasn't a model employee back then.

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THINGS NT'S DO THAT JUST DON'T MAKE SENSE!