Thoughts about friendship

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That's what I call mutual favors. As far as I can tell, many friendships today seem to lack this dimension, except for rituals like holiday gift exchange.

EDIT: For a manifesto of that style of friendship, see The Best Friends Can Do Nothing for You by Arthur C. Brooks, The Atlantic, April 8, 2021. (Subtitle: "If your social life is leaving you unfulfilled, you might have too many deal friends, and not enough real friends.")

Mutual favors are a double-edged sword, as far as friendship is concerned. They can be a foundation of friendship, but they can also be (in many but not all cases, depending on circumstances) a barrier to more-than-superficial friendship.

As I said earlier in this thread, I think of friendship as having 4 foundations:

- Companionship
- Emotional intimacy
- Comradeship
- Mutual favors

And, as I said, it seems to me a friendship (or, at least, a friendship close enough that the friends actually care about each other) needs to have at least 3 of these 4 foundations, but not necessarily all 4 of them.

That being the case, one could classify 5 types of close friendship, based on which (if any) of the above foundations they lack:

1) The traditional female friendship: Has companionship, mutual favors, and emotional intimacy, but lacks comradeship.

2) The traditional male friendship: Has companionship, mutual favors, and comradeship, but lacks emotional intimacy.

3) What seems to be today's upper-middle-class ideal of friendship: Has companionship, emotional intimacy, and comradeship, but lacks mutual favors.

4) Probably the rarest type: Lacks companionship, but has emotional intimacy, comradeship, and mutual favors. (I can most easily envision this type of friendship forming between people with severe depression or other mental illnesses, who met each other in a support group or therapy group, or perhaps in a mental hospital, and who helped each other beat the system in various ways.)

5) A fully well-rounded close friendship: Has all 4 foundations.

Friendship is something I've always struggled with.

Other people seem to inherently enjoy each other's company, but I can only see it as a burden in-and-of itself. Partly, I don't like being observed; I don't mind bystanders & pedestrians, because they aren't really aware of your existence, but if someone is truly aware of me then I have to analyse everything about them and about the situation. I don't know if it's a defensive instinct or something else, but it is what it is.

It also continues when I'm not with someone physically, since they are still 'connected' through the ability to text or otherwise contact me – I feel the weight of this perceived connection constantly, it's kind of an obsessive thing, and the end result is usually that I either disappear in some way or, if I have to, I burn bridges pretty hard to ensure that I there is no possibility of reforming the connection.

Another reason I don't maintain friendships is that I like just being able to do whatever I want. If I'm at someone's house, I now have to do things that I find desperately boring, like watching television. My personal vision of hell is a couple sitting down and watching television, wordlessly; it's an image that expresses death to me.

Also, while being around people can be interesting, and while conversation can also be interesting, most people aren't interesting at all and, even if they are, they can only be so for a fraction of time.

Because of all this I've never really felt any strong connection to another human being. I can feel rapport, to an extent (and moreso here than anywhere else) but almost every single person variously disgusts or bores me and I don't feel any instinctive need to be around people. But I do get lonely, I like communicating (or else I wouldn't be here), but I don't get anything out of it beyond that. It's a rough contradiction to be in the middle of.

Do you have to do this with everyone in your life, including people whom you already know very well, such as your immediate family?

Needing to expend a lot of energy on carefully analyzing social situations is a common problem for autistic people. But, for many of us, it does eventually diminish as we get to know a person better. I'm wondering whether that would be the case for you too, or not -- at least if you were ever to meet a person whom you found interesting enough for you to spend the necessary time for you to get to know that person.


Quick question: Were you exposed to some really annoying "social skills training" as a child? (I am under the impression that there are a lot of "social skills training" programs out there that try to encourage kids to "make friends" in cookie-cutter ways, ignoring the kids' specific interests, likes, and dislikes.)


... unless you were to find a person with compatible interests, likes, and dislikes. Real companionship involves doing things together that both (or more) people enjoy -- and not doing things together that either person finds "desperately boring" or otherwise distasteful.

If you happen to have unusual interests and/or unusual un-interests (I too dislike watching television, except for very rare occasional specific things I might want to watch), this does indeed rule out companionship with the vast majority of people. But it does not necessarily rule out companionship at all. It just means that, if you ever decide you do want to have friends, you will need to look for people who share at least some of your interests and who do not have their televisions turned on all the time when they are at home.

Also, good friends let each other know what their likes and dislikes are. A considerate host, aware of your dislike of television, would not have the TV on when you are visiting them, even if they normally do watch TV a lot. A considerate host would find other things to do that both of you enjoy. In my opinion, potential friends should discuss their interests and their likes and dislikes, in detail, long before either one visits the home of the other.

People who share your specific interests and un-interests may be rare, but they almost certainly do exist -- somewhere.

The only question is whether you deem it to be worth your while to look for them. Of course, you're the only person who can decide whether this is worth your while.


I've never found most people to be very interesting either. Finding compatible friends has always been a challenge for me.

Nevertheless, I occasionally have succeeded in finding real friends.

And having those friends has been very rewarding, not only emotionally but also in practical terms. Having close friends can be extremely helpful when you are going through a crisis.

Do you have family members whom you will always be able to count on, for the rest of your life? If so, then maybe you really don't need friends.

But, if not, then perhaps it might be worth your while to take on the needle-in-a-haystack challenge of finding compatible potential friends, rather than assuming that compatible potential friends don't exist at all because the vast majority of people are not compatible potential friends of yours.

Another question: Do you live in a large city, a suburb, or a rural area? Looking for compatible potential friends, when you're an oddball, is much easier in (or at least near) a big city than in a rural area.


The kind of rapport that many of us (possibly including you?) have here on Wrong Planet is a kind of emotional intimacy, where we feel comfortable talking about feelings and experiences that we don't feel comfortable talking about anywhere else.


You describe it as "rough." Does this mean you wish you could find people whose company you could actually enjoy? Does this mean you wish you could find some way to make social interaction less burdensome?

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 18 Feb 2023, 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Glad to discover a year and a half-old discussion-thread on thoughts about friendships receiving ample responses to this day. Thank-you for beginning this thread.

A few of the current discussion threads in the 'Social Skills and Making Friends Forum' might be ripe-for receiving responses over both the short and long-terms.

I guess I have a couple of NT friends. But the friendships don’t feel equal. When they’re bored or lonely, they ask to hang out. But apart from that, they have little time for me.

Wow, this post reminds me a lot of the most recent post, "Friendship dilemma" but I think it's important because we need to know what the definition of a friend is. For example, I used to have the hardest time understanding the difference between a friend and an acquaintance. I also had trouble understanding when someone was a fake friend and a real friend and especially since my brain is wired to take everything seriously.

For example, I would get upset when people would convince me that we were friends or best friends and then didn't live up to that golden title.

A definition of a friend is someone who will love you no matter what situation you are in and they will be there for you through hard times. A real friend is sincere, honest and reliable and they certain wouldn't overly criticize you and constantly tell you that their other friends and family dislike them. They also would not get overly defensive when you question the friendship.

That's my definition of a close friend. There are many degrees of friendship.

Unfortunately, the English language doesn't have words for distinguishing different degrees of friendship, although it does have words for various aspects of friendship.

The ultimate degree of friendship is described in the ancient Greek legend of Damon and Pythias.

As for how I distinguish between a friend and an acquaintance:

A friend (close or otherwise) is a person who I like, and who also likes me, and with whom I've regularly or at least semi-regularly experienced at least three of what I call the foundations of friendship (companionship, comradeship, emotional intimacy, and mutual favors), and who has not been exploiting me, backstabbing me, etc.

On the other hand, an acquaintance is anyone whom I say "hello" to.

Do they have full-time jobs and other responsibilities? If so, they may genuinely not have much time to hang out.

What is the context of these friendships/acquaintanceships/whatever? Are they people whom you see regularly anyway, as a part of your normal life (e.g. neighbors, classmates, work colleagues, members of the same religious group, regular participants in some recreational activity you're involved in)? Or are they totally separate from anything else in your life?

To help you evaluate the quality of your friendships/acquaintanceships/whatever with these people, I would suggest asking yourself these questions:

Are they people whom you can trust?

When you are with them, do you (at least usually) enjoy their company?

Do you and they have common hobbies or anything in particular that you and they enjoy doing together or talking about together?

Have you and they ever faced any common challenges (of either a serious kind or a fun kind) together?

Can you talk to them about things you wouldn't feel comfortable discussing with random people?

How have they responded when bad things have happened to you?

Thank you for your thoughts.

They do have full-time jobs, and I understand this. But it feels like they can still make time for their other friends but not for me unfortunately.

They are separate from other parts of my life.

I do enjoy their company.

But we don’t really have any shared hobbies that I can think of. It mostly in the past has involves food of some kind and just conversation. But I would love it to involve more of an actual activity/interest

I actually can’t think of a challenge we have faced together

There are things I don’t feel I can talk to them about. I don’t feel I can talk to them about Autism-related topics because they won’t take me seriously

I don’t recall them supporting me when bad things have happened to me. When I’ve had bad flare ups of health anxiety or OCD, they haven’t taken it seriously

Are their other friends also separate from other parts of their lives? Or are they people whom they know from their immediate neighborhood, or from work, school, church, recreational activities, etc.?


Have you ever talked to them about what kinds of activities you and they would both enjoy, besides just hanging out and eating together?


Have any of them confided in you about anything significant?


Based on what you've said so far, it doesn't sound to me like there's much potential for a close friendship between you and these people. Mutual liking isn't, by itself, enough to sustain a friendship.

The more casual friends are people who like us and get excited when they see us and vise versa.

Yes, I think you’re right. There needs to be more common, shared interests perhaps. I haven’t talked to them about including more interests but I will attempt to do so.

Indeed, if you still want to build friendships with these people, identifying shared interests and activities you both enjoy would be a good start.

Hmm, I wouldn't define friendship, casual or otherwise, in terms of how "excited" people are to see each other. How "excited" people are can depend on lots of extrinsic factors.

It seems to me that measuring a friendship (or any other kind of relationship) in terms of quantity of excitement is a big mistake, inherently likely to lead to instability.

I came across this just now:


The Real Reason No One Has Friends Anymore