New girl in my office

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Oh and one more thing QFT...a word of caution

Approaching girls who work with you is fraught with danger. A number of girls will have a policy not to date men whom they work or study with. I would be extremely cautious before hitting on this girl as there have been cases where a man has innocently asked a girl out and been hit with sexual harassment....here's an actual case study from my HR department website

I’ve been at my job in a large telco for five years. Sometime last year, a new assistant started. I didn’t notice her at first, but we got to talking at the Christmas party and have been friendly ever since. We chat at the printer and in the kitchen and go to get coffee most mornings. A few weeks ago, I got up the courage to ask her out for a drink after work. She politely declined, saying she had a policy against dating anyone from work, and although I was a little deflated, we laughed it off and kept chatting as normal as we walked back to the office. That was the end of it, or so I thought. She didn’t come to work the next day, or for the rest of the week and then the following Monday, I was called into a meeting with HR to hear that she had made a sexual harassment complaint against me! I don’t feel like asking her out once was sexual harassment. What are my rights when it comes to sexual harassment complaints in the workplace?

The correct response here is that the man should avoid asking his co-worker for a date unless he very sure the signals he is getting are reciprocated. Apparently the line between innocently asking for a drink and suggesting sex is very blurry. The HR response is to avoid this situation.

But if number of men is roughly the same as number of women, how is it mathematically possible that each woman has several male options but not the other way around?

From what I know you aren't allowed to date someone of a different status. Like I can't date students I am teaching nor can I date the professors I am working under. But if it's someone of the same status, like fellow graduate student, I don't see why not. I mean, in my own department there are two couples, all four of the people are math professors on the same department. Which is fine since it's professor-professor rather than professor-student, so they are on the same standing. So if professor-professor thing is allowed then student-student thing should be allowed too.

If the issue is not the fact that it's at work but rather the fact that the feelings weren't reciprocated, doesn't it mean that any romantic rejection can leaf to sexual harassment charges -- even the one far away from work?

I think this works like the children's game of musical chairs where each chair is like a single available girl. The problem is for each chair there seems to be multiple men seeking to sit down on one chair.

Where are the other girls (chairs)? that's actually a good question !

This is different now; relates to co-workers rather than subordinates.
I think for Aspie men you need to be extra careful to pick up cues if you are pursuing a co-worker. As i mentioned the policy in my workplace is to advise it's safer to avoid pursuing a workplace romance where the female might not be aware of your intentions. HR departments are probably getting hit with sexual harassment claims where female workers are claiming co-workers attempts to flirt are now considered harassment.

All I am saying is there is an identifiable risk...



I think the problem here is the girl. I think most girls would be good-humoured about flirting but the girl you mentioned sounds "highly strung" and from experience such female co-workers are dangerous if they are not ready to process your intentions might be annoyed enough to take it as a pretext for complaint.

You called?

I'm one of those "other girls" that don't ever get approached (which is also part of the reason I do it myself), even though I'd dare call myself average in looks. I'm not overweight and take care not to look messy, so with WP's L&D section's logic I should have an army of men lined up... but nope.

Also QFT: if you never stop to help other people, how can you be upset when they don't help you? You say that it's because you don't see them as victims, but the same can be applied the other way around, too. Maybe they can't see you as someone who'd need help. Same goes with approaching people; you shouldn't be upset about people not coming to you if you never do anything yourself.

If "liberal" means inclusive and progressive, I agree that statement is anything but that. That's sad for Berkeley and any other institution that can't figure out how to BOTH provide extra support to a group of people AND enrich the education of the remainder of people. Fixed resources are a result of fixed minds. My college had programs for students who needed additional preparation; I was "overprepared" in the subject and was selected to teach one of the workshops - so it helped those students (subject matter) and it helped me also (leadership). Win-win. Our local elementary school is going to be the ASD hub for this area: it's a great school and I expect they will implement this is a way that benefits the entire community, rather than "trying to accommodate the [ASD] kids too much". Again, basic psychology: sad "Either/Or" and happy "Both/And".


I wonder that if I looked your way, would I consider your demeanor to be gentle or inviting or standoffish - perhaps something in between. I generally don't approach men b/c I know the rules ("a woman should not be too forward") and in any case the potential of rejection is hard. Those parts have nothing to do with likeability or deserving. A person can't change everything all at once. People pick their challenges, their focus.


Beautiful. My NT husband has more empathy since caring for his kids.


What comes to mind is your statement I moved below your question. I think you're trying so hard to be "fair" or protect yourself that you are instead what I call "selflessly selfish". BTDT myself. My instinct is to say "hi" to this person with warmth and vulnerability whether or not she says hi. You said you know that you are in opposition a lot --- balance that with agreement and collaboration a touch. As much as you can, move your focus off unknown (she doesn't talk, she does talk) to what you want that is in your control (I want to talk to her) and take responsibility for trying constructive ways to do that. There was a teenage girl I met a long time ago - she was mute. I would sit by her, accepting her for who she was. One day before I moved away, she whispered a few words to me. I didn't expect them, they were not necessary, they were her gift to me.


I was thinking that "to give away my power" is to become insecure and deferential and it doesn't feel good to me and probably not to others either.


Spelling it out (which pains me b/c I don't like to "judge"). The "golden standard" in certain parts of the company (not all, but too many) is a rich white man who excludes those unlike him. The closer a person is to that standard, the more he will get paid and the further ahead he can get; the further away a person is from the standard, the less she will be paid and the more she will be excluded. I read that an Aspie's dream is that the "golden standard" is those who work hard and are thoughtful and kind.


Sarcasm: Because if they try to accommodate left-handed people too much then others will suffer (referring to ridiculous statement above). Dual-spout ladles are costly and unattractive. It's easier to clean up my mess.


No biggy: his cell phone number is on the account. Although it does amuse me when at restaurants I give the waiter my credit card and he gives my credit card and receipt to my husband to sign. Ah, this world of ours.


We have something in common. Now if it were something a bit more uplifting for both of us.

Sorry fireblossom, my posts are about NT girls who put themselves "out there" in public places (coffee shops, parties, out with friends). I realise most girls on the spectrum (I have a 14yr old ASD daughter) prefer to keep their distance from the "meat market". Frankly I am overprotective in this regard so don't include ASD/Aspie girls in my posts to QFT who himself appears to be targeting NT girls in the science field anyway. This of course of course may not apply to you specifically if you have online dating profile or are on the dating scene.

As usual females know more about their own psychology than us menfolk.

Sorry I made this into a "sausage fest" with QFT but was actually trying to achieve the same goal by convincing him to leave his co-worker alone as (yes) I too got bad vibes from what he posted and was concerned he was coming across as potentially harassing this NT girl in his office who was giving very clear signals she was not interested.

Cyberdad, it seems like when you were talking to me you were acting as if the girl is the one that is being "bad", yet when you are talking to Fireblossom and Carol you act as if I am the one who is being bad. So could it be that you are assuming I am the bad one but, in order to be able to influence me to leave her alone, you are pretending to take my perspective so to speak? And then you end up being very hypocritical when you call that girl with a B-word (since you assume that -- as a bad person -- that would be the word I am most likely to agree with) while your actual intention is to protect that girl from me? So why not talk to me honestly and directly instead of playing mind games like that?

By the way, I also googled the first two sentences of that bolded harassment complaint paragraph that you posted, put in quotes. What I found was https://m.centraltelegraph.com.au/news/ ... t/3825392/ So that link was *not* linked to a website of any specific institution (contrary to what you said that it was linked to yours), and the advice given on that link did *not* mention the need to avoid asking out coworkers (it was instead advising the man to file a defamation complaint). I guess you distored it in order to encourage me to leave that girl alone. Well, once again, may I ask for an honest communication instead of all these maneuring?

Now, going to the actual point: why do you assume that I am being malicious as opposed to just a confused aspie? I mean, you pretty much told Carol that I am harassing her (yes right now it reads as "coming across" as harassing her, but my memory tells me that at first the words "coming across" weren't there -- although I am not sure I mean I didn't save what you had or anything). You also told Fireblossom how you purposely avoid including aspie girls in the advice you are giving me because you are being protective of them, which implies that you don't see me as just someone with Asperger, but rather someone with Asperger+sociopathy. Oh by the way I won't date anyone below 18 since it is illegal -- so you don't have to worry about your daughter -- but what about aspie girls that are 25, 30, or 35, would you want them to date me? If no, why not? In fact you didn't say I am "interested" in scientists -- you said I am "targetting" scientists -- which is the word that is normally used to described predators.

I guess the reason you view me this way is probably because I described myself asking that embarassing question in front of everyone. Okay so let me explain that I did that "not" because I purposely like to be that way but because sometimes I am impulsive. Let me give you an example of a situation where I was the only victim of such impulsive behavior. So I was taking a train and I was using my cell phone on the train. Then the train stopped only briefly at the station where I had to get off, and as the train was about to depart I started screaming at everyone to let me pass so that I could jump off the train. When I got off the train I saw I have no cell phone. Train was still standing for another half a minute or even a minute, so I could have easily gotten in to get a cell phone. In fact, even if I were to get in and it were to take off, all that would happen is that I would have to pay additional ticket fair to get to the next stop and then to get back, which is just two or three dollars, and yes I would have to wait for another train to get back, but I had my studies with me, so it really wouldn't have been a big deal. But, from pure emotional point of view, I didn't want to do it, because I was just done fighting my way off the train and I was like "phew I am so lucky I got off the train, do I really want to waste that luck by getting back on?" So I was hoping against hope that maybe I put my phone in a backpack or something -- which is quite unlikely since I normally put it in my pocket -- but since I *really* didn't want to get back on the train, I was hoping against hope so to speak. After I gone through all my backpack, sure enough, the phone wasn't there. The train already departed so it was too late. Then I spent another week running around different lost and found to find my phone. Never found it, so had to order a replacement one.

The point I am trying to make is this. In the above situation with the phone I didn't hurt anybody but myself. So the issue was not that I am abbusive so-and-so, the issue is that I am impulsive. Well, maybe the same thing happened with the girl too seeing how I couldn't believe that I asked that question that I did and couldn't forgive myself for it. I mean, even from purely selfish perspective, how would it possibly serve my selfish needs to ask that question and make myself look bad? So clearly the issue is not selfishness, the issue is impulsiveness. Yes I am selfish too -- but so is everyone else, being selfish is a human nature. But if selfishness is coupled with impulsiveness, thats when I end up doing the things I am doing.

But now that we have established that my problem is impulsiveness, then maybe I can learn from the past mistakes in order not to repeat them. I have a really good hindsight -- given how I obsess about my past mistakes for months on end. So I am quite sure that if I were to be in that train situation again, I would choose to miss my stop over losing my phone. And I am equally sure that if I were to get into that if next year that same office situation were to repeat with some other new student, I would never confront that student in front of everyone, either. As a matter of fact, I can give you a real life example of where I learned that. So I went to subway the other day, and in the subway there was a young woman and older woman, and they were kind of working both at the same time. When my turn arrived, the young woman started making me sandwich, but then she had to step aside, so I had to wait few mintes for the old woman to finish the sandwich she was making for someone else so that she could make me a sandwich; but then after that old woman finally made me a sandwich and new customers came the young women was back helping them. Now, I wanted to ask whether young woman stepped aside specifically because she didn't like me, but I didn't ask it You know why not? Because I remember that office incident and didn't want to repeat it! So you see, I learned from my mistake!

So given how I can learn from my mistakes, why are you trying to influence me into isolating myself instead of helping me to recover from the mistakes I made?

I guess your answer to this question might be the following. Even if you believe me that I won't make that mistake again, that girl doesn't. And it doesn't matter whether she is right or wrong in not wanting to talk to me. The fact of a matter is that she doesn't want to talk to me -- so I shouldn't force people to do what they don't want to do, regardless of whether they are right or wrong. Okay that point is fair enough. But thats not your point is it? I mean you went next step further and decided that I shouldn't date aspie girls since they are easy victims. So that latter issue is "not" about the girl in the office but rather its about how I will be around other girls in the future. But why are you assuming I would be that way instead of learning from my mistakes?

I mean my ultimate goal here is to be a normal human being. I feel abnormal since nobody talks to me, so I want to fix it. Now, seeing how I want to be a human leading normal lifestyle, why on earth would I want to be a predator "targetting" people (targetting is yoru word not mine)?! I can "appear" that way because I feel desperate due to that normal humanity being taken away from me. But if only I could get my humanity back (meaning if only people were to treat me the way they treat each other) I won't feel a need to act like some creep. So its circular: due to my desperation, I act creepy, as a result people treat me as a creep, as a result my desperation becomes even worse, which makes me act even creepier. If only I could somehow break this cycle and be treated like a normal human, then I will act like a human too, I promise.

It would be off topic and involved, so let's say this is a rhetorical question: nature or nurture? Just this morning my NT husband scored above average on the "Reading the Mind in the Eyes" test. I was flabbergasted: "so you DO know (expressions of feeling)! !! ! Then WTH (that he is unexpressive and doesn't respond to mine)?!" His answer: "Doesn't mean I do anything about it." (I took this as self-effacing apologetic humor.)



I didn't read most of the other posts so as to keep my cool (as you may have seen the term "girl" is a BIG trigger for me at this time). As I have mentioned elsewhere I am having problems in my current workplace: mild, but chronic --- I am in a high state of agitation, so that would be an involved conversation also.

Clarification: I don't want QFT to leave her alone; I would like that he is kind when he engages. He doesn't have to engage, but I think it would be good all around - kindly.

I still doubt the assumption that the female human is NT and giving "clear signals". I pass as NT. The very few responses I read sounds like me (embarrassed but honest, "testing" with "hi"). Again, since I didn't read most of the other posts, I may have missed evidence for NT. Teasing: was it the cookies? (I would only have cookies if I was re-gifting them, although my Aspie-like sister bakes.)

@cyberdad, thank you for the consideration.

I won't define liberal as inclusive. Rather I would say liberals priority is to be inclusive of groups that were historically marginalized, while conservatives are trying to be inclusive of the groups that are currently marginalized due to reverse discrimination. That is tied to the disagreement as to whether traditional or reverse discrimination is bigger. Liberals believe traditional discrimination is bigger, while conservatives believe the reverse discrimination is bigger. Thus, both liberals and conservatives are trying to be inclusive of the groups they view as being discriminated the most. They are simply disagreeing as to what these groups are. And that disagreement makes sense: since the nature of those two types of discriminations is so different from each other, you can't truly compare them, its like comparing apples to oranges. But human being is succeptible to peer pressure: thus, if you spent all your life surrounded by people that focus on discrimination A rather than discrimination B, you would be focused on A too which would make you *feel* A is bigger: and nobody would be able to convince you that your "feeling" is wrong since there is no objective criteria to measure it against. Thats why liberals and conservatives never convince each other.

On a separate note, ask yourself the question: what does the belief in global warming -- which is a pure science -- has anything to do with traditional or reverse discrimination? Yet liberals seem to believe in global warming and conservatives not to. Or ask yourself why is it the ones that feel sorry for animals being slaughtered are liberals, while the ones that feel sorry for infants being killed are conservatives? Wouldn't you think those two types of sympathy are similar to each other? Or ask yourself why is it that democrats support blacks while republicans support gun owners: I mean do whites like guns more than blacks, or what is it about? I can go on and on. The answer to all those questions is people are just following the crowd. In US you have liberal and conservative crowd, liberals are usually friends wiht liberals conservatives are usually friends with conservatives, so they have all those ideas on all those separate topics evolving within each party and people just blindly following them. Each person might *think* they are being objective, but they aren't. They are just rehashing what they were taught.



That might be true -- but apparently both liberals and conservatives have fixed minds, just in the opposite directions (see above) -- which is probably why those types of issues never get solved.



That sounds like a much better idea. It sort of reminds me of Russia where in elementary school they had "preparatory grade". So most students would go to the first grade right away, but the ones that are behind (as judged by tests I guess) would be sent to "preparatory grade" first; thus they would be a year behind but they wouldn't drag other students behind. At the same time, that gap of a year won't get any wider since in preparatory class they would get a chance to fill in those gaps, so it is win/win.

I guess the problem with America is that they chose not to do it. What they did instead is they watered down education enough for all students to be able to keep up (an extreme case of it is "no child left behind" policy) and thats ultimately what slows everyone down. What motivates it, however, is a need to be inclusive. Thats why I was saying that inclusiveness isn't always such a good thing.

To give America credit, a gifted student is free to jump ahead of the rest. Like I moved to America at the 8-th grade, and I went on to take college math and physics throughout high school -- something I couldn't do in Russia -- and this over-compensated for whatever gap Russia and America has so I ended up learning more due to moving to America. But you see, most students don't choose to go that rout. So it would have been better if they were to force students to study more by making calculus into mainstream program (which is what is done in Russia). They couldn't do it in America due to the fact that some students won't be able to keep up. So I guess thats what "preparatory class" is for, which is what they don't have in America. I guess if they were to have one, then perhaps a lot of students in that class would end up being black and so schools would be accused of segregation, even though it wouldn't be segregation it would be an objective look at test scores. So thats where political correctness stands in the way. By the way, in Russia this is not an issue since in Russia you can probably count on your fingers all blacks across the entire country (so the preparatory classes are populated by whites, just like all other classes).



I think my demeantor is some combination of intense, hostile and standoffish. But that is precisely where I feel like a victim. I can't control my demeanor! Thats the problem. If I actually felt the same thing as what my demeanor shows, that would be one thing. But if I feel like I want to be included and loved just like another human being yet my demeanor shows just the opposite, it is super frustrating.



But wouldn't this apply to both genders equally? So why should men be the ones that have to face potential of rejection?

Perhaps part of it is that people falsely perceive as if I, specifically, am more likely to reject others -- due to my demeanor being antisocial. But then once again I feel like a victim. It is really painful when I feel like I want to communicate at all costs yet people assume just the opposite.



Yes they do. My demeanor shows that I am some kind of robot without any human needs or emotions -- or worse that I am some kind of predator. So yes it has everything to do with my likability.



Your assumption is that talking to me is one of the "projects", so you are choosing between this project and your other projects. But why do you have to view it as a project? Why not view it as a normal communication to another human being? People obviously don't view their friends as projects, since they aren't choosing between their friends and those other things they are doing. So if they are to make friends anyway, why can't I be one of their friends?

Maybe the reason they view me as a project is that they don't know how to talk to me, so its a challenge to figure it out. But what do you mean you don't know how to talk to me? Just talk to me the same way you would talk to an NT!! ! So what would be the worst that would happen if they talk to me the way that they talk to an NT? Okay maybe I won't be able to follow the dynamics of conversation. But is it really horrible enough as to warrant avoiding the whole thing?



Why does that have to apply to me rather than to her?



I don't like an idea of balancing two deviations from norm: rather I want to become normal. So if I do A wrong, instead of balancing A with B I would like to, instead, be given a chance to stop doing A. And by chance I mean for others to invite me as if I don't do A and then -- after I am invited -- I can demonstrate how, indeed, I won't do A. But balancing A with B is not what I want since it won't make me normal, it would only balance two abnormalities against each other.



This advice sounds like this. Lets say I am not happy with my weight and you are telling me "oh, you just have to hold on to some object when you stand on the scales, and this will solve your problem". No it won't: because my concern is not what scales show but my actual weight. Well, by the same token, my concern is not whether or not I talk to her, but rather whether or not she thinks I am someone worth talking to. And that second part is something I can't fix. If I force her to talk to me, she still won't think I am worth talking to: she would only be talking because she is being forced to. Apart from the fact that it would be extremely rude and selfish on my part (of course) it wouldn't fulfill my need of self validation anyway.



This reminds me of the opposite experience: back in good old 1997 I was in the 11-th grade in high school and I ran into non-verbal autistic+Downs kid whom I was bullying whenever the stuff that watches him was gone. At one point he said "go away" despite being non-verbal. I guess in his case I later saw he was using speech machine, so I am not sure if it was "really" a miracle or just him using a machine. But I am leaning to think that if he had a machine I would have noticed it (since I was using him as a case study so to speak so I would have paid attention) so perhaps it was something similar to what you described.

So have you figured out how that mute girl was able to speak or what happened? When you told others she spoke, what did they say?

In any case, it was really beautiful what you described about you and that girl. Sorry for ruining it by bringing up the bullying thing. I can't help it: I really miss good old 1997 (not that kid but that year in general)



So that last item on the list implies that they would choose racist white male over non-racist white male?! I never heard of it. I think the reaction to racism is from neutral to negative, but you wouldn't find a place where its positive unless you go to KKK or some place like that. I think something like against both blacks "and" racists would be closer to something realistic -- in which case non-racist white would win over both.

But then again, discriminating against blacks isn't as common-place as what the liberals would like you to think. In fact I have plenty of opposite examples. Like one example is what my father told me about his own relative. So his relative, who also immigrated to America from Russia, put -- correctly -- that his race is White, and he couldn't get any promotion. Then at some point he decided to lie and changed his race to black (which was a complete lie, there is no way he had any non-white in his bloodstreem at all) and then he immediately started to get promotion after promotion. The other example I heard of is a place where a real black was promised promotion if only he would come to job on time (something whites wouldn't ever dream of) but he didn't come to job anyway, so he got fired -- and then blamed it on racism.

But in any case, I can believe that there are "other" places where they might look down on you for being black. But I guess when you say they look favorably on you for being racist, thats a lot harder to believe.



I was always assuming others have that standard too -- well, at least in academia anyway. Its really sad if that is not the case.



That statement about others suffering *would* be true *if* you make an assumption that you can only have one type of ladder rather than dual-spout. I guess they don't have dual-spout once due to it being too costly.



I notice that they give receipt to my mom if I go with her at the restaurant. But that is because she acts as if I am a kid and she is an adult. Could it be that your husband acts similarly? Maybe you should watch the way he acts and if you notice something discuss it with him in private.

You have one theory that she is an aspie. But its just a theory. You can't rule out the possibility that she is an NT -- especially since

a) There are a lot more NT-s than aspies
b) I had a lot of NT-s treat me this way.

In the context of her being NT, those signs are quite clear.



Well, every respondent besides you does. Also, that officemate of mine wants me to leave her alone, too. So what you (and my mom) are telling me is that I have to ignore the vast majority's opinion and talk to her anyway. But whats the point??? The whole entire goal that I have is to feel welcome. Being somewhere where I am not wanted wouldn't make me feel welcome. So it kinda ruins that whole purpose of it.

QFT...dude..,.I am not trying to label you (or protect girls my daughter's age from you?) but based on the reaction of the girl and the proximity to your place of work/study I am trying to tell you (in the nicest way possible) that there risks in pursuing this girl (who BTW comes across NT based on your description).

There are plenty of fish in the sea; surely you can put your energy into meeting a nice girl elsewhere. Have you tried online dating? you could increase your odds meeting a nice girl online.

I actually sympathise because I went through a long drought myself where I found I could not understand what NT girls wanted?

What about family connections? somebody that is known to a mutual friend? you seem like a nice guy and I am just trying to motivate you to think outside the box when it comes to girls.

I think it's possible to continue engaging this girl in a professional/friendly way without having to worry about dating her.