Not sure what to make of this...

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http://omniverse.blogspot.com/2006_04_0 ... 5604185186

The blog entry I read was "In praise of desperation". This is an excerpt from it:

My gut instinct was quite strong; I felt this person was being extremely unfair to people with mental illness, classifying them as bad friends. I still think that she or he is wrong to lump all mental illnesses in the same category, though the fact that mental is written with quotation marks does suggest that the author believes them to be all made up anyway.

Looking back though, I am not a good friend. I recognise (now) that there have been times in my life where people have tried to include me and look out for me. I usually didn't notice, or thought they were acting that way because they were just nice people fullstop (i.e. weren't acting any nicer than they would to any stranger). I feel particularily bad over one friend of mine; I didn't know her very well (I thought) but she looked out for me and invited me to meals out with her friends. I only found out that a guy in my year who killed himself was a really good friend of hers a couple of months after it had happened, and I didn't do much about it. She was a popular person and had friends who were closer to her than I was (I think), so I suppose I thought others would do a far better job than I would with my ham-fisted condolences and awkwardness. I still wish I had acted differently. It's like friendship is a bit of a blindspot, so for me, the author's words do have a ring of truth.

These days I don't actually want friends. I panic when someone tries to be more than politely friendly; not that I dislike them (I often do) but because I feel I won't be able to live up to their expectations as a friend. Even here on WP, I see cliques form and breathe a sigh of relief that I have no friends here, just people whose posts I enjoy reading and responding to. The same people who quote my post one day may slate me the next, but it's ok; there's no pressure not to disappoint them.

One thing that did strike me as odd was that whilst the author was all for weeding out 'mentally unstable' people from friendships, they were adamant that desperate people made great romantic partners ("if I were ever single again, and was acquitted (lol), I'd head to a scifi convention and make a beeline for the geeks who haven't had a woman in 10 years, believe me."). Surely if you are that fussy about friends, you would be equally critical of romantic partners? Personally, I would rather a 'desperate' friend than a 'desperate' partner.

Anyone have any thoughts about this article?

Desperate partner = baggage. I'd rather be friends, and y'know, help them work it out. It all depends on the person though, essentially. Gotta love blanket statements...

But for everything else, yeah. Friendship doesn't compute too well.

The way it's written does kind of strike a chord - it's easy to read it as "Make sure they're NTs before you give them your friendship". Aside from the choice of words I can't really fault the advice, though, since it seems pretty sensible to avoid friendships that could be a burden on you while offering nothing in return. It just reminds me of that uncomfortable sense that everyone out there is part of secret club, which is careful to shun anyone without a membership.

I've been that way a long time, too. Although I'm aware that it's probably just self-esteem thing, I can't help feeling that letting someone get to know me is just giving them an opportunity to discover things they won't like. Unfortunately, I've been learning that maintaining that distance seems to create negative opinions anyway, in the long run.

Last edited by Leander on 17 Apr 2010, 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

I think that this is a ridiculous generalisation. There may be a little truth in it, for example, that people with a mental illness of some sort are sometimes difficult to be friends with, and often their friends will end up "bending over backwards." Does that make them bad friends? No. Some of the people I have met with mental illnesses like depression are also some of the best people I have ever met. Some of them will give everything they can to anyone else, while not thinking they are worth anything, which again, can make friendship difficult, but not impossible. Obviously, the good and the bad can get a mental illness, but a lot of them are good people. Being good people, they might not want to bring others down with them, and so are torn between desperately wanting a friend and not wanting to 'burden' people with their problems. This person may have met a few people with these problems, he has not met every single mentally ill person on the planet, and so there is no way he can claim that they are all "incapable of BEING friends."

As for the socially inept, I happen to fall into that category, and know many who also do. The people I have met with social difficulties (I can't speak for what I'm like as I'm far too biased to see myself as I really am) I'd say... it takes time and understanding. I suppose they could seem like bad friends, because a lot of friendship is on the surface (hugging, chatting, etc.) Under these surface things, I can't see why they cannot be as good a friend as the next person. But it takes effort to uncover this, and maybe effort is what this person is trying to avoid. Desperate people who will throw themselves at this person, and, voila, he/she has made an instant friend, full of gratitude etc? Yes please. Friendship with people who need it but aren't, for want of a better word, well-rehearsed? No thank you.

Perhaps this person has simply been unlucky with who they have met. Maybe I'm being a little too harsh. But I do think that this person has over-generalised, and disagree entirely with what he says.

I think the writer of the blog you quote has an overly simple idea of "desperation" She seems to claim that a person who comes across as desperate is simply strongly motivated to attain friends. My understanding of the term "desperate" is it refers to a person who has begun to panic in their situation. A drowning person is desperate. A person in the middle of a lake, but who can swim is just strongly motivated to get to the shore. There is a big difference between the two.

I think the writer of the blog is well intentioned, but I don't think she understands the situation. She states "...if you want to have the most positive possible experiences with people, your best bet is to pursue those you're repelled by, and reject those you're overwhelmingly drawn to..." I am repelled by lairs, cheats, passive aggressive people, serial killers etc. I don't know that my life would be much improved by pursuing them. I am drawn to kind, decent people and these people have been good for me. Maybe this person's advice works for herself, but it certainly isn't universal.

I will say that It can be useful to push yourself to experiment with friendships that go beyond what you are comfortable with. You may be surprised to find you can deal with social interaction that you at first thought would overwhelm you. Maybe this is the lesson that can be extracted from the person's post.

Lars

Perhaps the author met people with mental illnesses who used their diagnosis as a cart blanche excuse for terrible behaviour. I was in a seriously mentally abusive relationship with a guy who was diagnosed with depression and I met a fellow Aspie who seemed to believe that she didn't have to respect others because of her diagnosis (example, she'd call at 2am or so when I had work early the next day about something like clothes or make-up and she'd give out sh** to me for telling her I needed sleep).

If these were the type of people she was meaning, I can well understand cutting such people out of your life. I haven't read the full thing, just what the op has quoted.

That's a pity... You're a good poster with good thoughts, as far as I've seen.
Though, I think it's good that you don't feel any social pressure from your posts. People worry about disappointing others too often, and usually not for a very good reason.

But yet, on the other hand, I can relate. I had many IRL friends up until a year ago when I cut them all off. Every one of them, all at the same time, haven't spoken to them for a year now. Did it because I didn't feel worthy, as you mention. It's a depression thing. They're good people, I'm crap, I wont hold up 'my end of the bargain,' etc etc.

...So I'm just saying that for the sake of letting you know you're not the only one.


That is interesting.

My theory is that she recognizes that she can totally steamroll such peoples' will, and be treated like a queen in the process. If she can stomach the lack-of-spine from the guys, then it's an incredible deal for her. She's clearly a selfish person, though.

But on the other hand, I think she's possibly right in her stereotype of people with mental problems. I think the big problem is permanency. Where a 'normal' person has temporary loneliness, someone with ingrained emotional or neurological issues will tend to garner and keep a sense insecurity for much of their life. Years of conditioning, compared to months for a 'normal' person. And so the insecurity, and all it's 'satellite issues' that come with, don't go away when the loneliness itself is sated. Where other people have loneliness and loneliness-derived issues on a finite basis, us awkward introverts generally don't get-over all our issues unless we focus very hard on locating them, and burning them down.

And so far, it seems that a lot of people on WP, for example, are perfectly content to stay as they are, instead of undertaking difficult changes. Moreover, it's difficult to see all one's issues, let alone address them, if you don't have someone's critical eye on you, and their forthright words to make you aware of things. In contrast, people who are always surrounded by friends have ample opportunities to get 'called out on their BS,' or to notice their affect on people. But an awkward introvert has fewer such opportunities.... Toss in AS, to hinder our ability to notice, and it gets worse.
Therefore, a stereotype, where people with AS(for instance) don't fix their issues despite finally gaining a friendship.

So I guess I sorta agree. Without a harsh regimen of self-monitoring, and criticism, and affirmation, and self-improvement, people with emotional or neurological issues will tend to be less stable and fulfilling friends.

That's sad. But at least it's not immutable.

Thanks for the responses everyone .

jamesongerbil, you're absolutely right, it does depend on the person. Funny enough, I would be more likely to invest time helping a partner, but that's because a part of my thinking is that they won't automatically 'desert me' once they get better. It would depend on what the issues were though.

lmao, I've found that too! I was so careful in high school to be as blank a slate as possible; I think it worked a bit, in that I was rarely bullied to my face, but I know at least a few people thought I was 'posh'. I try hard these days to divulge small amounts of information to people I've met in order to seem like an open person.

rosiemaphone, I see what you mean about people with social difficulties needing more time. The thing is, I know at least one guy who possibly has AS and as a friend he's awful! I like him, and actually, he's probably the closest I have to a best friend because there's no pressure; we can go months without seeing each other and go back to chatting about movies, science etc. Just superficial stuff. I knew another girl a few years ago who acted like I was returned from the dead after an absence of 3 weeks . I wonder if because we both are on the spectrum, we don't percieve the social chill as painfully as an NT might, so we get more out of the friendship for what we put in than they would.



I have to agree with you there Jagatai, I thought that paragraph was a bit foolish. Perhaps she didn't mean it to be taken literally. I also don't see why she's so repulsed by desperate people and why that means she should pursue them. Just because they are desperate doesn't mean they can't tell pity or revulsion anymore than anyone else. If I thought someone was repulsed by me, I would avoid them as soon as I could, even if they were trying to be 'kind'.



The author didn't specify whether they had a diagnosis or not. I think for her argument, it doesn't really matter. Her argument seems to be about avoiding friendships with mentally unstable people in the first place, just in case they pull that kind of s**t.



Aw, thanks Sound It really made my day when I read that. I have to say you have some very good advice too (there was a thread a while ago when you suggested 'validating' the other person's view in an argument; I actually tried that the other day and it worked!)

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I don't know about selfish; perhaps she genuinely thinks she's doing them a favour by dating them But yeah, good luck to her...



I think you hit the nail on the head. It's very had to see ones own issues and if bullying's been an issue, hard to tell what bits really do need fixing, and what is just the bullies talking. As a result, you get a sort of combination of crippling low self-esteem combined with confusion as to what exactly it is we're supposed to be low-esteemed about. Plus, in the time it's taken to work on the central issues, we miss out on life lessons that we should have learnt along the way. A bit like missing school due to sickness.

The critical eye is definitely important. The thing is, many have been bullied or their parents have given up trying to reason with them (or were never reasonable to start with) so it's hard to tell whose critique is worth listening to and whose to discard. I used to listen to my mum a lot. I ended up quite neurotic and over-dependant on one person's opinion, which caused both neediness and resentment because of it. I now have my boyfriend and everyone here to bounce issues off as well, so the advice that comes back is a lot more balanced.



I think that's the hardest bit. Telling someone with low self esteem already that they need to be self-critical kind of sounds stupid, but it does make sense. Why build someone up with false praise when reality's only going to come along and knock them down? I can see why 'tough love' sometimes works (if the person isn't in total denial/victim mentality).

Hearing that makes me quite happy!
The crazy thing is that it's not even an Aspie thing... Lots of people don't realize when they're denying validation. Had like a 6 hour discussion about the topic with my mother once when I was visiting her. As it turns out there's tons of different ways you can do it, either by aggressively asserting someone is wrong, or by being like "Aw that's cute that you would think that, but here's how it actually is."

But anyhoo.... I hope you're never reserved about disagreeing with me. I rely on outspoken, smart cookies to keep me in line.


*nod, yeah, I could be overstating, over-inferring.

I'm glad that you understood what I was trying to get at, with the idea of a problem's permanency, btw... The thought is kinda weird, coming out.


Exactly. And I agree, that is the hardest part, because the flaws that required criticism tend to lie at the very base of their perceptions. It's like trying to address a flawed foundation on a sky-scraper. Everything one feels they may have built up for themselves is potentially up for demolition. Serious business.

This is why it's so critical to get other peoples objective help. Strangers can really help in this regard. People who are close just can't do it, I don't think.