Jerk radar

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How would one go about developing this without coming into further contact with other jerks/as*holes/whatever you want to call them? Cos Ive been in contact with a lot of them.

I'm a nice person overall who loves to see the good in people and yet I still get people who speak to me/treat me like I'm s**t on their shoe and it really does my head in.

Or am I destined to be naive forever?

Fiz,

Speaking from a lot of experience I could relate to what you're saying here.

There is something about the way we Aspies project ourselves to people -it's like we're walking dart boards and I could relate to you many stories.

Those that do target us have self-esteem problems of their own and feel the need to dump on the weaker (or perceived to be) in order to make themselves feel "on top" again.

Could you tell us some examples of your experiences? Is that coming from colleagues? Random attacks by strangers in public places? Drive-by insults, etc?

Like most Aspies, you seem to be a magnet for those types. I'm under the impression there is a need to address whatever underlying issues there may be. I hope we can talk about it some more.

Sadly, you can't always tell until they open their mouths. And sometimes they will be completely nice to you until it just comes out.

One key is to watch how they treat other people. I knew this one girl that kept dating jerks. She would be like, "How can I stop finding these guys." She said that she didn't care how they treated other people as long as they treated her fine.

So I'm like, "That's your problem. You're paying more attention to the facade they are putting up rather than who they really are. If they treat other people badly, who do you think is going to be the next target of their attitude if you piss them off?"

I don't think people understand that you are always going to see the bad side of a friend (or relation) turned upon you eventually. So whatever you see them do to other people can and will eventually be turned on you at some point, no matter how they feel about you. Everybody gets mad. It's up to you to decide if it's going to be a dealbreaker in the friendship or relationship.

hmmm... think i need a neurotic-needy-histrionic-insane warning radar then

I don't converse too much in public, and I don't seek out relationships. So, I am not worried about who is and isn't an as*hole. I have enough problems trying to keep myself calm with my own family and so forth, and I've learned that even people who love you and take care of you can be as*holes in their own way. I think everyone has that as*hole element that comes out sooner or later.

- Ray M -

Fiz, Your body language is screaming: "I'm passive! I'll put up with you, no matter what!"

Some people like to say that aspies dont have body language, but thats not true; everyone does. No matter who you are, or what pose you strike, an NT is going to read it according to social rules about body language.

The trouble begins because we cannot, as a group, strike the right pose at the right times, and we cannot, as a group, read others poses subconsciously.

We can be deliberate about it though,

I'm going to make a wild assumption. Bear with me.

You are standing talking to some paragon of human virtue, and your legs are like this:



or maybe this:



But basically, you are resting all your weight in one leg, and the other leg is up, or curled around the supporting leg. This means two things.

It means, "I am not going anywhere" and it means "I am submissive". This along with the body language of your face and hands lets the other person know that its is permissible(from their viewpoint), to misuse you, because you are willing to put up with it, and you are in no hurry to leave.

Try standing like this if you wish to talk as an equal, but dont intend to walk away..



Thats a confidence stand, and a little unusual for women, but it should counter act your other body language. A neutral stance would be with the toes pointed forward.

Note the way the grout lines lay in those pictures. Imagine that the other person is lined up with the lines too(at 90 degrees to the lines).

See how the first lines are cockeyed? you want to face, at least partially, the person you are speaking too. If you stand in opposition(facing away from them), they will take affront, and verbally denigrate you. Face the other person. Dont face more than say 30 degrees away from the plane of their body.

This is how you stand if you are wanting to walk away from them. It signals that you are leaving.



See that? One foot points away... You dont want to point to that extreme. My stance was awkward in all these photos. Its hard to balance while bending over to take a picture!

But! The foot! Point that foot at what you wish to do. If there is someone else you wish to speak too, you can point it at them. If you wish to leave the building, point it at the door. They will not be conscious of it, but their brain wil pick up the signals.

If you are pointing an escape, the person will alter their behaviour to reinforce their wants. If they are being mean unwittingly, and you do this, they should start being nicer.

If they do want you to leave or let you leave, they will mirror your behavior. They will point a toe away from you. You can look for this when you first start talking.

Ok. Arms. Neutral position is hands hanging along the sides of your body. Passive is crossed, especially hanging crossed over the pelvis. confident/agressive is hands on hips. You can enhance this by thrusting your hip to one side. It works great while you toe point.

Now, I notice in your avatar pic(very nice picture!), you have your head tilted. This is also a sign of submissiveness. Do you do this when talking to someone? You might want to not do that.

I'll do some drawings of feet in other positions. It will be easier than photos!

Last edited by Fuzzy on 03 Jun 2006, 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh come on, that body language is a bunch of crap. The often-repeated claim "Communication is 90% body language" is absolute rubbish. If that were true, chimps would be 90% as good at communicating as we are. Whereas in reality they have no where near the communication abilities that we have because they lack the power of words. Communication is 90% words, and 10% body language.

Do you really think that jerks will stay away from Fiz just because she positions her feet a certain way?

I like phoenixjsu's suggestion of watching how they treat other people. That is far more practical and useful than waggling your feet in a special body language voodoo hex-sign which supposedly repels jerks.

It seems you have identified the problem yourself. By all means continue to see the good in people, but also open your eyes to the bad in people, otherwise you are only seeing half of the story. Then weigh their good points against their bad points, and if the bad points outweigh the good points, then the person is a jerk so stay away.

I am guessing that when you meet people, you just assume that they are good until proven otherwise. Whereas I think your view of them should be that they are an unknown quantity until you know them better. Maybe when you meet someone new, you could practise retraining your default assumption of people by saying to yourself, "OK here is this new person. Is he a jerk or is he not? I do not know yet, but I will observe and ask questions and determine this after a bit of time."

Whereas if your default attitude is to just automatically slip into "This new person is good until proven otherwise", then you are asking for trouble. I am not suggesting you be unkind to people until they prove themselves good. I am just saying that your default view of a person should be "unknown quantity" not "good as far as I know".

I also wonder if you are being excessively tolerant of bad behavior, or giving them far too many chances. Perhaps you should dump him after 1-3 bad acts instead of 10-30 bad acts.

In Fuzzy's defense: While the myth that "90% of all communication is body language" isn't necessarily true, like all myths it has some basis in fact. In communication there are a lot of things going on, not just bodily expressions and verbal communication -- eye contact, facial expressions, verbal inflections, proxemic patterns (social distances), etc... The percentages that each of these plays varies from person to person, but generally speaking if I had to put a numerical percentage (which I don't like to), then most NT communication runs at about 45% verbal with all that other stuff changing tone of everything. Most aspies probably run from 75% to 90% verbal which accounts for the vast majority of our difficulties between ourselves and NTs. It would be a grave error to say that we don't have a communication gap in this department.

Some of what Fuzzy is demonstrating is correct in some context. That being said,

I disagree with Fuzzy here: I've studied social interaction and communication very in depth, including more aggressive interaction skills like interview and interrogation tactics. But that's one of my obsessions. Many other aspies have no interest in some of these skills and so won't show as much aptitude. If I started anywhere I would suggest an aspie to read about proxemics first, because it doesn't involve changing outbound physical communication -- remember, *that effects what you are saying*.

Outbound physical communication is very very complex and horrifically difficult for even some of the most apt NT's to master. I don't know much about Fiz, but from some of the things I've seen her write about, she seems to be moderately successful for an aspie in social interaction. I wouldn't change that.

The problem with Fuzzy's examples is that all of those signs he showed are SO context oriented. Some of those things (he guesses) she does in her body language, which he suggested she change, are necessary in order to let the right people in -- if she puts up a "confident" (some of the stances he suggested are actually more confrontational stances) front, she could drive away a lot of people she might actually want around. Plus, some of the ones he said to get rid of are necessary to a female in romantic interaction and they don't always take on the negative appearance he suggests (maybe to predators, yes. But to the people that count, these things are more important).

It's more important to project an open honest image of yourself, because if you do anything less on a rudimentary level, things won't sync up and an NT will see right through it -- They may not know what is wrong, but they can definitely tell when something is "off", and for this reason many NT's might shun her with the impression that somthing about her isn't on the level.

emp is right. I think Fiz has a good idea of who she is and what she wants to project. That's why I think it's more practical to tell her to focus on what the other person does rather than change something that has to do with who she is... She'll be much happier learning how to cut the a-holes out by spotting them then she will learning a complex frustrating new skill or how to change her image (which she may be happy with).

I would actually like to thank you all for your responses, it has made me realise that I don't have to be vulnerable forever and will try as best I can to follow every bit of advice in here accordingly, body language, the way I view people (I think I am actually a bit too soft on others) or otherwise.

Ok I edited this for a reason. I want to help out not to be get my self fussed at for assuming to much again. Jerks can be any where. If you find out that this person is a jerk stay far back as possible. It always works. This coming from a guy.

Last edited by TigerFire on 04 Jun 2006, 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Interesting conversation, thats for sure.

It irritated me to get called on what I said at first. But I learn as I go too. So thank you.

Emp, Unlike some others, I'd never say that communication is 90% body language. What a load of crap. If that were true, there would be no need for spoken language. We would be unable to communicate properly with written words.

Continue to call people on that. Its good work. Its like when people make the bold statement: "they say...blah blah blah". There is no they.

phoenixjsu, You both support me, and knock down the pillars I put up. How contradictory. Bravo sir. I admire people who can see both sides to an issue.

You are right of course. Those are very contextual stances. Fiz stated once that she culled out the nasty 'friends' in her life. That leaves stranger to stranger interactions, or perhaps aquaintance to aquaintance. These situations would primarily be face to face, standing confrontations. The same would often apply to work environments.

An exception would be dealing with someone on the other side of a cash register counter, but thats a whole other ball of worms. A barrier has issues all of its own. Doubly so in the case of cash transactions, and the fact that the other person would be acting on the behalf of an employer/company.

To all:

I was very careful about what I said, and it obviously showed because phoenixjsu called me on the context narrowness. I dont give advice unless its advice that I follow myself. In this case, its tested and true.

I've stated it before, til you all were blue in the face, but here it is again. I was a bouncer in a nightclub for many years. As a bouncer, I was not very aggressive, but as an aspie, I definately am. I saw a LOT of interaction between drunk, sober, stoned, abusive, submissive, angry, sad and downright normal people. I saw interaction between staff members and the public at large, over the counter, under the counter, behind the counter, in the bathroom... oops. Going a little too far...

My bread and butter(my personal safety), depended on me making an assessment immediately,(as in seconds to milliseconds) on whether someone would leave peacefully when asked, of whether I was going to have to grapple them and throw them out. Undoubtably, I read incorrectly at times, but I A) never injured anyone(pain is not injury), nor did anyone else ever injure me. It was the act of separating dominant and agressive people from meek and submissive. Abusive people put up a fight with anyone they saw as beneath them(just about everyone).

Thats as close to success as anyone can claim.

But I have a life outside the bar too. I get to be kinder now.

The expression of secondary attention through foot pattern still holds though. If you take a confidence stance and people approach too close, they are in effect challenging you. Thats not socially acceptable in most situations. An NT is fairly strongly bound to social contract. If you express a wish to remove yourself from their behavior, they will permit egress or modify behavior to alleviate your discomfort.

Here is the important part: Physics beats words. Tangled feet are not ready to walk. Its not magic. Dont take my word for it; watch peoples feet when you talk to them. the direction their toe points is the way they will go.

Fiz is very pretty(annoying to give physical compliments), and very charming, based on her writings. She has gifts that garner her a fair share of attention from the world, and I dont just mean guys. Attractive girls are usually judged kindly. From her own admission, it is her people sorting skills that are lacking. This was the basis of my advice.

When you go to work, you behave in a way becoming the image that your employer wants the company to project. That isnt behaving falsely, its behaving intelligently. We are not animals. No human is, and it is best that we step away from instinctual behavior and be thoughtful about what we do. Actors STRIVE to do this, politicians, car salesmen, police, psychologists..

You have an innate right to limit the types of people that get access to your feelings, in so much as you can guard yourself from them. There is no falseness or pretention in not crying in public, nor in using every possible means to dissuade aggressive hurtful behavior.

That being said, assertive and nonsubmissive behavior will not injure the popularity of our friend Fiz. There is a time and a place for a woman to be submissive, but that is not until a guy has proven himself to be worthy of her trust. Only then should the shields come down. It is not appropriate to present yourself in that way to a stranger.

In fact, I will go so far as to say that it will make her more popular. It is when we have to struggle for the affections of someone that we become deeply attached. Thats called emotional investment.

Fiz, express confidence. Confidence is remarkable in that it is a function of intelligence and experience, tempered by self awareness. A side effect of that is that the expression of confidence should make you feel more confident.

Anyway, Thats it for my rant for the time being. I'll check back later to see what issues you all have with my words. I hope to see some.

Fuzzy shakes his fist threateningly... "Knock me down a peg or two damnit! You know you can."

You know, I thought you were something like a bouncer or you had done martial arts or something by the type of stances you were talking about. Nah, I wasn't trying to bust you down or anything. I completely saw what you were saying and what you are saying in this post, and I respect it (I used to be a cop). There was a time when I might have even given similar advice. I just thought it might be too aggressive for her style. But I think you have the right sorts of ideas.

Fiz

I'm thinking a little in terms of partnership material, but it also applies to good friends.

So, a lot of people will treat you badly because you let them. You don't say when you think what they do is not ok with you. Possibly because aspies have a hard time saying things like that nicely and not coming across as really negative or nasty.

So what I learned from toastmasters is the art of an "evaluation". When you want someone to do something differently, you pick three things about them, ideally related, two positive, and one negative. And you phrase the negative one as a "point for improvement".

For example - I'll try to evaluate Wrong planet:

So if you can think of a way of doing this when someone does something unacceptable for example miss an appointment (or be routinely late) with you without phoning to apologise (note I do this when I forget, usually monday appointments, or any made at non routine times of the day). Ie "did you forget the appointment? Are you ok? It was really upsetting for me, I thought something bad had happened to you" - is a gentle way of telling someone that missing agreed meetings is unacceptable to you. And maybe thanking them when they do make an appointment on time - "I really appreciate when you show on time, because that helps me keep my day straight" - if they've been missing many appointments you could add a bit about not worrying about the worst.

And the other collected list of jerk tags - ie "red flags" is here at Heartless b*****s.
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/redflaglist.shtml

Some women behave like manipulative jerks too, the list repeats itself a little, some things seem to contradict with other things on the list but you will get the idea and the feel of the pattern of what you're looking to avoid or minimise contact with.

On the body language thing, mime artists and traffic cops and the scarier teachers can communicate much using no words at all. To an extent we use both deliberate conscious body language and the more sub-conscious body language to communicate. And these communications, the more subtle ones, are easy to misinterpret. For example for me hair twirling is a stim not a come-on.

I thought it was said that non-verbal communication made up 70%, not 90% of communication. Nevertheless, I don't see how it can be that much. If that were true then I'd demand to be able to submit 70% of my university assignments in mime form.

Then thats how you'd get marked!

Well then, in dance form. I'm a decent dancer.