Adult social skills question

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Special note: I've *bolded* the question. There's a lot of preceding explanation on this one so if I find that you need to skip over the explanation to put this in context - please skip down to it and then read what you can tolerate of the preamble. Thank you.


I have a question regarding a very specific question related to adult social behavior. This one something that, very particularly seems to come up with 'peers' so to speak who are in their late thirties or early forties upword (whereas I'm in my early 30's)

I'll start this question by giving a very concrete example of what I'm talking about. There's a guy in my martial arts class who I work out with on a regular basis. We practice after every class, we come in early on Saturdays or even practice for a few hours on Saturday previous to class, even when there is no class, and especially when we have belt testing coming up. I think its clear that we're both quite driven to make the absolute most of the martial arts systems we're learning and we're both quite serious about moving up solidly and when we pass a belt level we get the tests nailed as fluidly and as on-point with everything we do as we possibly can. He's in his early forties, was a marine in desert storm, two kids, helps teach the kids class and he's one of those people everyone gets along with and, as well, we're on particularly good terms not only for sharing a lot of the same values but also that if either of us wasn't there we'd be somewhat SOL.

This is what I'm trying to understand though. There are plenty times where even adults who I have great rapport with will do this, so it makes even more sense to bring him up as an example. We were talking before we started training about how our instructor had picked poor venue (he paid a great deal to rennovate the basement of an old building that has poor property management, and his signage is poor, also my partner mentioned telling the instructor that he should really think about spending more on advertising - he won't though). When my workout partner showed up I was outside looking at the window decal that my instructor has and how its in red and purple. He may have so-so walkby traffic even but what's there about a deep red and purple sign against black (no light)? Very little. I got him talking on how he believed that the venue was an awful location with no street view and also how he won't chip in for advertising. Now, we both know that my instructor is on a five year lease so - our instructor has to make lemonade out of lemons. I suggested, over the course of maybe ten or fifteen minutes a couple things to him (going forward from what we know are immovable obstacles). I was telling my partner that our instructor should cut the name of the school as well as and his website and email address out of the decal and redo those in yellow or at least a bright yellow orange - already our color against black, because the building is very legal looking, cold gray, and the orange would actually peel people's eyes to the window. Now, we agreed that actual 'advertising', getting my instructor's site up to top rank could cost possibly $500 per month with $40 per web page click - got it. He won't pay for that, he won't pay $1,200 for a half page colored ad in the local news for a month - got that too. However, when I talked to my workout partner about the ideas of changing the signage, making glossies to pass out at the recreation center, or the possibility of finding frequented community websites and advertising there; he seemed to almost talk right over me and reassert what was already said, a bit like he was discounting it out of hand.

The thing I've noticed is that, particularly when I try to engage myself in a conversation on problem solving, it seems like people ten years my senior or more - most important to note people who even like me just as much as the people who may not like me - will often talk right over me, cut me off in mid sentence to address a point that I wasn't making (as if I need to establish the whole of what I'm saying within seven words - I can verify I don't ramble on for ever), and its very difficult at times not to get steamed when it happens so preemptively that I'm sitting there stuttering on the first word of my sentence five or six times because that's how many times certain people cut me off before I can even start talking.

Now, I get that with the example I gave he could really just be giving a value judgment of where my instructor is at and may truly believe that he won't be able to make a case with him even on the little stuff; that's fine, but this happens with him, with everyone, often. Now, it seems like all the way around, there will be designated times where people will not cut me off, and those also seem to be nonverbally agreed upon, but past that - it happens religiously. Its also, I can verify, well outside this group. I still remember my dad taking me out to the bar in my early 20's with some of the guys in my family - even then he was in his mid to late 60's, he's something like the figurehead of the extended family, the guys he brought with him ranged from late 30's to mid 50's, and it was an identical story - I could barely say a thing without being cut off mid sentence. Lol, my dad's the same guy who trained me all through my youth that interrupting people is a sign of poor social skills or a sign of lacking class; but then that tells me that when adults who have that view on interrupting people do so they're doing it for a much different reason.

Now, I get the age bias, I get the arguments that my 'elders' so to speak will see me as a kid, see most any 'kid' as a kid first and foremost, its an unconscious bias and religiously interrupting is probably an enforcement of heirarchy - *partly* at least. What makes it weird though is as the age gap shrinks, as a lot of these people are ten years older rather than twenty; true, I look young for my age so that still may have me up for plenty of this. However, I sometimes get stuck wondering - is there another mechanic to it? Are there certain throught processes that I'm employing within conversation that bring this out of people? Am I bringing up ideas, facts, or figures quite often that are unique to an autistic brain structure or breezed right past by NT's as they have much broader and faster white matter networking whereas my thoughts come from more localized processing? I really feel I need to figure this out because, as an adult I want to be an effective communicator. On the other hand, being cut off by people - religiously - is a sign that I'm an idiot, *especially* to people who are outside the conversation and don't know me or them. I feel like its a need to assert the authority of my own mental competancy but, as you can very well figure, what I need to do in order to resolve this kind of thing gets much more fine tuned and precise when I'm dealing with people who I like rather than just being cut off by people who don't like me. More importantly I firmly believe that nature compels behavior, I need to understand that reason and meet it half way rather than make blanket demands which I've noted all my life to be a self-defeating pursuit.

Let me know what you can make of this situation, or my examples, and what you can think of - especially as an NT who has had to fight themselves on this impulse. I want to know what it is and how I can possibly approach and tackle it even prior to the point of addressing it with people privately.

Thank you.

Not that I'm any kind of authority but, I'm an aspie who got a degree in communication studies because I had so many issues with it growing up.

When someone cuts you off it is not necissarily that they think what you are saying is of little value, or that your some how their subordinate, it can actually be a performative ploy at attempting to gain your appreciation and increasing acceptance. Take for example your discussion with your sparring partner. He could have simply been trying to relate by sharing his comparative opinion. Its considered a one across, which is an attempt at saying "I'm with you" or "I'm like you." Even if its a one down where he could be implying he has the better solution, it may not be because he thinks your solution is that poor but rather that you are both so passionate about solving the issue that of course you should here his possibly brilliant solution.

I used to constantly be interrupted but then I realised the most powerful thing to do in that situation is to listen. Not wait for your chance to talk or reassert your opinion because it means your haven't been a good conversational partner. If you use this rule of thumb, conversation generally becomes easier, deeper and more meaningful: if you get cut off, stop talking, stop thinking about talking and just listen deeply. Absorb what the other person is saying to the point where they then ask "do u know what I mean" or "what do you think?" Something along thoes lines. By that time you will have probably altered your opinion anyhow and enhanced your origional point based on evidence they just cited while cutting you off. This also makes people more aware of the fact that they cut you off and less like they have to fight for time in the conversation. Being a good listener makes u a good communicator. Besides, listening is way easier. :0)

Sounds like your doing fine and over examining what you might think your deficiencies are. Rock on with martial arts class! What belt r u?

there could be many possible explanations.

some people older and mid-career 40's and 50's develop quite an ego, and like to exert it over younger people. a 30 year old to a 45 year old man is a kid. but i've noticed much older people, past 65 are both wiser and more humble. though it depends.

perhaps it is the way you are communicating that is making the other older person feel threatened or invalidated.

@ resonate:

Green and testing for Brown in January, red hopefully by this summer as we already have most of our brown belt material done (long story). We're Kali, Kuntao, and combat/nontraditional Wing Chun so we both not only love the effectiveness of what we're doing but really want to see our instructor successful - he's an extremely practical guy, was a natural street fighter as a kid (in a religious foreign hotbed as a religious minority), so he's an expert at taking the best of what works in any system and removing the stuff that'll get ya killed so to speak.


That could be, I'll have to look into it. The only frustrating this is the paradox that I'm told now, especially as a higher belt, that my input is wanted but simultaneously getting my words in edgewise - even after listening a lot. I at least like that what you're saying is a lot more positive than either of the alternatives I was giving; and yes, for as much of a firm believer in evolutionary psychology subconscious in human behavior I'd rather believe that there's more advanced and 'human' forces at work in most people rather than lymbic ones - it just gives me more hope in humanity if you get my drift.

Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 31 Dec 2011, 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think the most often thing I think early-middle-aged adults tend to think is that 'kids' in their twenties and early thirties are book/logic smart and world/illogic stupid, and perhaps they feel like they're far better versed in the points of human illogic than we would be (which, I really like to think I'm not doing too bad in that particular department either).

I will agree with you in one particular scenario. I've you've even been at that dive bar somewhere in an industrial area where you have the bearded 70's/80's macho-man pontificator, especially after a few beers, he'll always want to cut off a younger person, redirect whatever they're really saying as something your not - in the naive direction, and enforce that he's a lived and experienced person where you're a young padwan who has so much to learn from him. Luckily, for as funny as that kind of thing is, I don't have much of it because - people like that I more than likely do intimidate and I realize its probably not a good thing to say a word to em since they're clearly a bit fragile.

Lots of different possibilities. On speculation, with the disclaimer that all I know about your workout partner, or you, comes from your post really...

- He might actually think your idea was silly; you were expending a lot of time he didn't want to spend as a result.

- He had some other reason to manage his time doing something other than discussing these issues with you; you were expending a lot of time he didn't want to spend discussing this.

- He's not accustomed to having these discussions, so he got a bit flummoxed [1].

[1] Mild bias on my part: the guy was a Marine active. Straightforward orders that make sense, or very very explicitly detailed orders that make no f*****g sense at all, are what he's used to. Discussions among equals might not be what he's used to.

This was kind of my original guess: ie. that he was thinking that if our instructor wasn't going to get the concept of paying to advertise, even if my ideas were significantly less expensive they're far enough perhaps out on a limb that he'd *really* be lost or confused if we tried to explain those types of ideas to him.

In a way though this makes me wonder if having that kind of example is almost injurious to the broader question just because - when I really think about it it is pretty specific and I guess that's the difficulty of coming up with pristine documented examples to explain a dynamic; particularly if as a broader dynamic its quite complex in causation.

I think the advice someone told you about listening, was the best advice. One of the best things I've learned is to let someone keep talking and then when it's finally quiet-- begin to speak again and also asking them to please not interrupt me. I had to point this out to friends and family who might not realize this happens. I think it's mostly about having patience with the other person because they probably can keep a conversation going while they're interrupted by someone else and they expect you to be able to do the same. I can imagine it's hard to stay on track with the back and forth in regular people's conversations. It frustrates me because being interrupted makes me lose my train of thought, not to it mention it makes me feel like my feelings don't matter to them.
In my experience, I get cut off by a lot of people, and many of them are also younger than me (although I look younger for my age) but in my opinion age is not the reason it happens. I think it has to do with many people being poor communicators themselves and possibly dominating a conversation when they don't need to.

i don't know a lot about limbic systems, nor am i the sort of person who often successfully manages to get my comments into conversations, especially group conversations. but it kinda seems to me like maybe some broader social principle is at work here.
you seem like a pretty masculine, tough guy, and it would seem like you like to keep the company of like minded folks. again, maybe i'm in over my head discussing things i dunno about, but from what i know of such folk (especially military folks or folks practicing some kind of fighting skills)... they really like their hierarchy. it may not really be the age factor here so much as the scenario you're in. now, i dunno the guy's relative rank to you in this martial arts thing you're both in, but if it's higher than yours.. well, that could explain things. or maybe he just feels because of his combat experience, or something of the sort...
in other words, i'm sure in their way, these men you're encountering do really like and respect you, but in that social sphere, people in that kind of superior-inferior relationship have the prerogative to take the floor at any time. it's their "right". they probably mean no disrespect by it.
but i could be totally talking out of my ass. what i'm curious about is what's the guy's rank relative to you? and do you encounter this problem with women or guys who aren't of that masculine stripe? hope this was at least food for thought even if it was completely wrong.

I've actually got a bit of a paradox. What you described pretty well describes me on an inward level, on the outward I'm cute-gawky aspie to the point that women are often apauled by a perceived weakness lack of masculinity (or something odd - from those who don't know me I can get 'I'm married's or bluntly volunteered 'not my type' out of nowhere rather quickly at the strangest times; that's another one I've had fun getting used to as a near-constant attitude). That's a different topic but I'm suggesting that yeah, I get the impression that looking like I'm 32 going on 22 probably aids things like this. Barring plastic surgery I'm not sure if that's a facet I can really do a lot with.


We're both the same belt and going to test for the same advancement at the same time. Green to brown right now, should be testing brown to red together. The main differences; I started perhaps nine months earlier than he did, I travelled a lot for work early on and he's been there both for our classes and helping our teacher instruct so he's had more class time and even private training than anyone else. So more seniority - its a hard call; I think we're pretty close to equal class-wise although life experience, having another 10 years and foreign service in a pretty front-line sense; I'll gladly give him that.

I think its quite possible that people do see me as well-intended, generally bright, but I get the impression that I'm perceived the way a lot of aspies are - ie. as high/low, and while people like me they often will get a certain sense quickly when they feel that I might be heading off my area of expertise more than I realize. Things like that though, or having my outward appearance subconsciously affect these things, is something I'm hoping I can mitigate more rather than less.

okay, so i was off about the rank thing... gotcha. well, i hope something of what i said was remotely pertinent, anyhow. and i do know what you mean about looking younger than your age. funny about your joking suggestion to get plastic surgery... i mean.. i wonder if anyone has ever SERIOUSLY considered that? and it seems funny, but i bet someone out there has..

@leozelig

">... I think the advice someone told you about listening, was the best advice. One of the best things I've learned is to let someone
> keep talking and then when it's finally quiet-- begin to speak again and also asking them to please not interrupt me. ... I can imagine
> it's hard to stay on track with the back and forth in regular people's conversations. It frustrates me because being interrupted makes
> me lose my train of thought, not to it mention it makes me feel like my feelings don't matter to them.
> In my experience, I get cut off by a lot of people,..."

I have been struggling for quite awhile with just this issue. I have been told by many people that I am a good listener. But this is because I (an aspie) can't seem to find the key to enable me to participate in a conversation in which several people (NTs) are involved. I know that I have something to contribute to the conversation, but the conversations never stops, frequently changing topic, so I can wait for several hours waiting for the time when it's finally quiet, which means the conversation is over, and we all go our separate ways.

For example, this morning, there were three of us sharing a coffee. The other two were talking fifty to the dozen, while I sat listening, having accepted that it is frustratingly hopeless trying to participate. Anyway, today one of the others asked me a direct question. I was in luck! Here was my chance to participate!. I replied "yes" to the question, took a breath to continue, and the third person joined in, and my contribution was finished. I listened to the other two talk for about an hour, and my total contribution was a single word!

I can, generally, carry on a good conversation with a single person, but if there any more than one, I am cut out, as the others dominate the conversations and I am relegated to the role of "listener".

I have tried many different strategies to over come this problem but without success. I have got to the stage where I do not expect to be able to say anything in a group conversation. I use these low expectations as a means to help me get over the frustration (and loneliness) I feel in these situations. But, it still hurts.

By the way, age has nothing to do with it. The others can be younger, older or the same age as me or each other.

Any suggestions on how to be a participant rather than just a listener will be gratefully accepted.