Not listening or not trusting?

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As many of you can relate, when I engage in long monologues or go off tangent, most NT-s resort to not listening to me. But something just occured to me. They only "not listen" to me when I am trying to tell something TO them. On the other hand, if I am saying something to someone else, completely unaware of their presence, then they WOULD listen to me. For example, three years ago I was talking on the phone about some problems I was having back in 2006. Now, it was 11 PM, but I happened to be in the office as I talked. Somehow, my advisor learned whatever I said on the phone and held it against me; and this is all despite the fact that it was late at night and she was not in the office to begin with!

Now look at this. If I were to talk to someone about 2006 in person -- which I do A LOT -- everyone ignores me. But if I am to talk ON THE PHONE about 2006 then people find a way to hear it even if they are not around! In fact, she herself refused to talk TO ME about 2006; the way I learned she even had that concern is from SOMEONE ELSE whom she told about it. Yet when I brought it up to her she said she doesn't want to talk about it to me.

Now here is another example. Usually when I talk about my physics ideas, no one ever listens to be because they are too unusual and/or I talk about them for way too long. But like a month ago I was visitting my parents and my dad asked me about my physics ideas. Now we were in the middle of the restaurant. And after I went on and on for 15 minutes my mom stopped me and pointed out that people on the other side of the restaurant "are listening to everything I am saying very carefully". Then I became concenred that they were going to steal my physics ideas. But my mom said that was not what she was saying. What she was saying is that it was inappropriate to discuss tehse things in teh restaurant.

Now when she said they were listening very carefully it was not sarcasm it was true: I looked there and, indeed, they were. Now, again, this brings up my point. If I say something TO someone in a situation where it is inappropriate to say it, they would NOT be listening, they would ignore me. On the other hand, when it comes to people whom I DONT WANT to be listening, then they DO end up listening.

Now this makes me think of the following. Perhaps it is not true that NT-s don't have enough attention span to listen. Maybe what is going on is NT-s dont trust us. Now, if person X doesnt trust me, then whatever I am saying TO person X would be ignored: after all it can be a lie. On the other hand, person X would listen very carefully to whatever I say to person Y since THAT is where my "true colors" appear. SO perhaps what happens is somehting like this:

1. An aspie does something inapprporiate

2. As a result NT-s dont trust an aspie

3. Due to their distrust of aspie, they would do BOTH of the following:

a) Ignore whatever an aspie says TO them
b) Listen VERY CAREFULLY to whatever aspie says to others

Well, the other person has to be in the mood to talk about stuff like what happened in 2006. You can mention you'd like to talk about 2006 sometime and leave it up to them to choose when and how to do that. Then again, I'm finding out myself not everyone wants to talk about whatever problems you're having (with them) or might not think it's worth discussing. There's nothing you can do if that's the case.

About the trust issues - it's weird. There's this girl that told me all about the problems she was having, but when I wanted to talk about something she pretty much just ignored me. A lot of people seem kind of selfish in a way. Then again, you never know what's really going on unless there's complete honesty, and honesty's pretty rare.

Thats fine and well, but then the question is: why did they go out of their way to LISTEN INTO the conversation I had with SOMEONE ELSE about 2006 in 11 PM at night? If they really dont care about the subject, why go into these length and listen in?

Thats what makes me think that they are NOT "tired" or "disinterested" but only PRETEND to be such because they dont trust me; and then they go behind my back to find out on their own whatever they are supposedly "not interested" in.

It's about the context of the situation. The reason your advisor was likely concerned was because you were in the office as you were talking at 11 pm. If you weren't working, the person she overheard it from likely found the time and place you were discussing these problems to be unusual. Generally, when people talk about their issues, they'll do it at home or somewhere more private, and the fact that you were there late at night and in the office instead of at home was perhaps what irked her. They listened in because the circumstances you were discussing it in were unusual.

In general, people don't want to hear about your personal issues, or things like 2006 unless they are a close and trusted friend of yours. As for your dad asking you about your physics ideas, he's asking because he knows they're important to you, plus he is close to you and knows you well. It is not really about trust, but how well you know other people and what circumstances you decide to say or do things. If you're in a situation that is unusual, even people you aren't close to may pay closer attention to what you're saying. Of course, I don't advocate setting yourself up in unusual situations to get people to listen to you, but there are ways in which you can improve your listening skills in a way that people will respect you more.

What you said only confirms my point. Notice the following combination:

1. If I do something unusual WITHOUT "inviting" other people, they will be MORE likely to listen to me (thats what you just said yourself)

2. If I will be talking TO said other people in "unusual" setting, they will be LESS likely to listen to me and in fact will probably tell me to shut up

Now how do you explain this apparent inconsistency? APparently being unusual is what encourages people to prefer to sneak behind my back AS OPPOSED TO talking to me; in other words it encourages them to distrust me.



Right. So then, why did she go and talk to my former advisor about said personal issues who was in another side of the globe? That is another inconsistency along very same lines. People dont want to hear about my personal issues; yet, if they happened to hear about it, they would go ahead and spread gossip about the subject they presumably dont want to hear about.

Last edited by Roman on 13 Aug 2012, 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anneurysm explained it a lot better than I ever could, but yeah, timing is everything. And it's really hard to know when and where to talk to someone. I'm having a similar problem myself and all my attempts to talk about it have been ignored, and might have made the situation worse. And I doubt that's because she doesn't care. Might have something to do with pride, or maybe the fear of losing face. Who knows - I doubt she knows that herself. And honestly, there have been times I personally really wanted to work things out with her, and there have been times I was just mad at her, or I didn't care. Emotions are kinda hard to control, so someone might react in a certain way, and later react in a completely different way.

I completely understand your frustrations, though. If something bothered them they should've come to you, instead of talking about you behind your back.

You're dealing with two completely different situations, though. In the example you used with your dad, he was less likely to listen and made those comments as you were talking too long about an interest you're passionate about (physics). This situation was just a factual reminder of general social etiquette: to not discuss obscure subjects for too long (something that many aspies have trouble with).

But the other situation did not involve facts, but it was fueled by emotions. The woman was more likely to listen in because you were discussing problems, which involve emotions. You would be less likely to be gossiped about if you were talking about physics as opposed to talking about your problems.

As put noted, it's unfair that that woman talked behind your back. Not everyone is like this, but I've noticed that there's a greater possibility that one will be like this around a person if the person exhibits a behavior that they don't quite understand. Instead of talking to the person directly, they will instead gossip about them to other people because they value the attention of the gossip receiver over your peace of mind.

That's the weird thing about gossip: it IS inconsistent. It seems to thrive on secrets and keeping them from the people who it's about. Basically anything involving problems, issues, or anything emotional can be turned into gossip.

Even you talk about your problems and people say "that's enough", or "I don't want to hear it any more", there is the possibility that they could take what they just heard and tell other people without you knowing. Again, NOT everyone is going to do this, so please do not assume that everyone is untrustworthy. The odd time, however, you'll run into a gossip-hungry person who will cut you off: but they may want to know a little bit, but just enough for them to gossip.

This is why you should keep personal conversations as private as possible, and with trusted family and friends. If you go on about your issues in a public place where people can listen....you may not know who may be listening and this could set you up as a target for gossip.

I think you misunderstood the point I was making in the dad's example. My question was NOT about my dad's behavior but rather about behavior of the people sitting across the room. The question is: why did people sitting across the room listen to my conversation with my dad BECAUSE it was in appropriate? This is exact parallel of that woman listening into phone conversation BECAUSE it was inappropriate.

Regarding my dad he is socially oblivious so he didnt care. It was my mom who pointed out that the ppl across the room were listening. And in case of my mom, she doesnt know physics so she cant possibly be "listening" even if she wanted to. So the bottom line is that I was not discussing either of my parents, I was discussing people across the room.



Okay I understand the FACTUAL thing you are saying: if I act weird people would be more likely to listen in. But my question about REASONS behind these "facts". WHY are they more likely to listen in if its weird?

Okay the "simple minded" answer is that people are curious to try to "figure out" why the weird thing occured. But that answer is probably wrong: if they were that curious why are they LESS likely to talk to the "weird" person to try to understand? Thats why I am saying perhaps they dont trust the "weird" person so they want to check out on them?

That professor is a perfect example of this. She was avoiding me at all costs. If I EVER ask her something she would phrase her answer in as few words as possible and make it clear by her body language I was unwelcome. If I were to pass by her office in my way to the bathroom she would close the door to make sure that I would not go there to talk to her.

But then SHE is the one who hired me as a post doc there! So despite the fact that she hired me as a postdoc she avoided me while I was there. And also you cant exactly describe it as "gossip" because the person she called was my former thesis advisor. And she basically told him off for not informing her about the said problems when he was recommending me because if she knew about these things she would have never hired me (thats what she told him).

By the way, here is another post about her I made a year ago: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt151914.html so you can see more details of how she acted

Hokay, I think the answer you might be looking for is not only in the 'context' of the listening, as others have pointed out, but the very reason 'why' others might be listening to you in the first place.

Let's use your example of the restaraunt. It's less likely they were paying attention or listening to you out of any desire for the information you were talking about, and far more likely that they were simply paying attention to you because you were standing out. They were, as you wrote, over the other side of the restaraunt, so you can't have been quiet. You also observed them listening carefully to you, but how do you know that's what they were doing? Were they taking notes? Assuming they weren't, theres the very real possibility that they weren't interested in your physics talk at all, but more interested in the fact that you were monologuing about physics, in a restaraunt, quite loudly, for a very long time. Heck I'd pay attention and I detest physics.

Whether that's an accurate interpretation of events or not, it serves to demonstrate how people can have different motivations for listening to what you're saying. It's not that people don't trust you or think you're being untruthful, it's that, for NTs, a conversation is not just an information dumping session - it's about connecting with the other person, establishing and strengthening a relationship, or perhaps testing those relationship bounds. When someone listens to a conversation you're having with another person it's not to form a relationship with you, it's to gather information about you - the reason behind why they're listening to you changes.

This isn't just for aspies, though, people will listen in on other's conversations just as much as they do yours. Whether people are happy to have a conversation with you or not has nothing to do with their propensity to listen in on you otherwise, even though you may perceive it that way.

^ Would strongly agree with this point of view.

And to me that part is also important. Case in point: look at all the posts I made about WISHING I had a girlfriend and how no one likes me. Now, face to face I am not that bold. But there were several times with online conversations when I would try to "correct" girls impression about me, but she wont listen. Or even better example. Back in 2006 they were trying to expell me from school UNLESS I find thesis advisor. No one wanted to be my thesis advisor because of bad reputation. I would then go on and on trying to "correct" the "wrong" impression I made but no one would listen to that either (eventually a retired prof took me in just to "save" me so I was nto expelled, but if it wasnt for him I would have).

Now, these very people who wouldnt listen TO me when I talk about myself DO listen to "secondary sources" about me (like what I talk across the room about, or what other people say about me). Now, you admitted that they ARE interested in gathering information ABOUT the person (see the above quote). If so, why not ask the source itself? Thats where it appears like the issue is trust.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "Actions speak louder than words?" This phrase describes what I'm about to explain to you.

If you've messed up something with someone through your actions, sometimes they will avoid talking about it directly with you to give you a chance to justify yourself. People often expect YOU to know where you've went wrong with them, and if they see that you can't figure it out yourself, they will give up and ignore you.

The reason these people don't ask you about things directly is that somehow, they see that you aren't self-aware enough to explain why you behave the way you behave. So, they'll go to another source, ask someone else about it, or listen to you from afar rather than deal with you directly, because they'll see it as effort. It's a weird echo of how most people behave around people with autism and intellectual disabilities...it's like they "aren't in the picture" and not a trusted authority even regarding their own selves.

I think you should work on your self-awareness a bit if you want people to start respecting you more. You should ask the people you are closest with what your obstacles are socially, and then try to become aware of these things and how they make others feel.

I know all too well thats the case. But the question is WHY is it the case? Are they thinking that if I cant figure out by myself, I would never be able to understand them even if they try to explain it to me what their expectations are? Well thats their theory but why not test their theory in practice: try to explain their expectations and see if I would, indeed, "still not get it" like they ASSUME I wont? Why not test their assumptions? What is there to lose?

By the way the idea that a person is either

a) So smart they can figure it all out by themselves

or

b) So stupid that no amount of explaining will do

is black or white. So NT-s are the ones who are black or white here, not aspies



Yeah that is another thing I always suspected that they don't think I am self aware enough. But they are wrong in this respect. I AM self aware. The only thing I am not aware of is THEIR expectations, so I do things MY way. They don't understand my way so they assume that I can't do things at all, but I can.

For example, back in 2004 I was accepted to a graduate school (the one where I had above mentioned drama in 2006). So, in 2004, I was supposed to go to orientation session. I bought myself two train tickets (from where I was to Chicago, and then from Chicago to where my new school was). My mom was worried that I would somehow forget about the fact that I have two tickets and just end up in Chicago. Also, they had a hotel reserved for us. My mom was thinking that I would forget to check my email to see where the hotel is and she wanted me to read it several days ahead of time and remember.

Now, the fact is that I never in my life had either one of these two problems my mom was worried about. Now it might APPEAR that I am oblivious because I would never bother looking up time my train departs, or the name of the hotel, until the last minute. But the fact is that when the said last minute occurs I always look up EVERYTHING I need to. It is simply pointless to look anything up any time sooner. Even if I did, I would forget it anyway. And if I were to print something out sooner, I would lose whatever I printed out. However, if I am to print it out the last minute I will never lose it for the simple reason that I know that on the train I wont have internet access to print it out again. So I will make sure not to lose it. On the other hand, keeping the printout several days before my departure is pointless because I can always look it up. But you see my mom doesnt operate this way so TO HER it seemed like I am oblivious but I am not, I have good reasons to act the way I do.

Thats why I dont agree with the concept of asking others. Because ultimately I am the person who is more aware of how I, personally, operate than anyone else is. I simply dont operate on THEIR terms while they are judging me from THEIR perspective which simply doesnt apply to me. I mean if an NT were to live in a planet full of aspies then aspies might assume NT is not self aware and ask other aspies instead. But the fact is that NT is self aware they just operate differently. Thats why it is important to go to the source since it is entirely possible that they are self aware just fine, they are simply different from others.

Besides, if they think I am not self aware, then I wont have much to say, so what is there to lose by asking me and hearing one phrase "I dont know". If they feel like they have to AVOID something, then logically it means that I WOULD have something to say, something that they avoid hearing so hard. But if I have something to say then, perhaps, I AM self aware. Or are you saying that they feel I "hallucinate" things so that I WOULD say something but its all wrong? If so, still there is nothing to lose by listening what my "hallucinations" are. I mean once they have the information they can always decide for themselves whether to believe it or not. But what is there to lose by having that extra piece of information?

Last edited by Roman on 17 Aug 2012, 12:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

Apologies, I should have been more specific when I was talking about self-awareness, as you and I have very different definitions of self-awareness. What I meant was self-awareness in the context of understanding how your own actions can affect other people.

You have a different view of self-awareness, in that you see it as how to keep yourself functional in order to accomplish a task. I will define the concept I am talking about differently, rephrasing it as "social awareness". For example, when you are monologuing about physics in a restaurant, people may view this behaviour as strange, and will view you as not socially aware.

Not being socially aware, can, again, cause people to become frustrated by your oblivious reaction to social rules and protocol that are seemingly obvious to them. In turn, they will not confront you directly about things, like others have done, and will go to secondary sources because they will assume you will are too socially unaware to explain things...even when you try to. So, learning about what kinds of "social mistakes" you commonly make make will help you recognize what you may need to work on a little more to gain the respect you need.

If you have hopes of getting along in the NT world, you need to at least be aware of your behavior patterns and be open to other people's perspectives. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them all the time, or sacrifice who you are, but you need at least be aware of the things you do that could cause people to view you differently.

Saying that the NT perspective doesn't apply to you basically means that you are choosing not to do the things that will set you up for SOCIAL success: like getting a TA to work with you or getting an NT girlfriend. The world is NOT going to change just for you to operate the way you want it to, as unfair as this seems. You can keep the stuff that works for you (like leaving things until the last minute), but in terms of social skills, you may have to make some minor changes.