Would empathogenic/entactogenic chemicals help?

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Like possibly MDMA, although there are many legal substitutes (or possibly even ADHD medication? They're kind of related, although they're more stimulants).

I wonder whether they could be officially prescribed for people with ASD... I mean, if they could really help, why not? This isn't just about 'forcing' yourself to make friends, bypassing any anxiety and inhibitions... we know that just cannot be done, and even if forced it's incredibly difficult and you won't feel good afterwards (probably because you screwed up, as there's a great chance that happens when forcing it, or simply physiologically).

Trying to find a solution here like everyone, as I'm sick of being alone and feeling so ret*d when I actually try to socialize.

I've got no experience in the matter, but share your interest.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt122297.html

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt139250.html


Methylone in particular sounds promising.

Thanks for the links... pity no on else has an opinion on this.

Right now I'm researching serotonin-norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitors... since typically antidepressants (SSRIs etc.) mostly only work on serotonin, and entactogens seem to work on both that and dopamine (and maybe norepinephrine, but to be honest I have to read more about that) I was wondering whether something that works on all of them would be more effective.

After all, being not depressed (if they work) is one thing, but having your social capabilities much enhanced (and being not depressed) is a whole other world, I suppose.

all mdma did was make me really....
....horny and touchy feeling with everyone, apparently I stared a lot...I might have chased away a girl I really liked too...

Let me tell you - ecstasy helped me tremendously. Course these things are unpredictable. But it was like none of the communication BS mattered anymore. Thoughts and conversation flow like water. Expectations and hurt feelings vanish and any form of expression is acceptable - I feel like it showed me that I can be myself, and people will love me all the more for it; if only I allow my guard and defense mechanisms to fall. I can go to anyone, strangers, and talk like we've known each other forever. Something I could never do normally.... Now I've taken it a few times, and the "magic" of bursting into that new freedom is gone, but that's because I'm so much more open and able to just... be, you know? Of course it's not just the pill. It's all kinds of things, most important of which is putting yourself in uncomfortable new situations, and learning how to interact, by trial and awkward error mostly. But ecstasy was one tool that helped me be who I am today. If you do it right, do your research, and have a friend or two who's willing to go there with you, it's really a stunning and eye opening experience. The first time was like seeing the world, myself, and others clearly for the first time.

I would not recommend MDMA for anything like this. Sure, it will make you more social for about an hour, but the comedowns and side effects are awful. When I did it for a while I became moody, anxious, and wanted to kill everyone. I also had horrible aches and pains everywhere. What is does is drain all your serotonin to the point where you have little left and you are no longer happy or perceptive to things...in fact, you just want to be alone and isolate yourself. It also disrupts your sleep.

On the other hand, marijuana produces relaxation, social confidence and heightened social awareness with very minimal side effects and zero comedown. That's just with my experience though...yours may differ.

Yea it's certainly not for everyone, I've seen people have nightmare trips on it, two of my friends got so addicted and depressed they wound up institutionalized for a minute in high school. Your mileage may very.

But Mary Jane? Mary Jane IS for everyone haha

MJ is interesting, I agree, but I don't think it has that sort of 'outward expression' that entactogens seem to work on, and I guess subjectively it may lower inhibitions but not really ease the interaction. By the way, when I first wrote this topic I actually had '6-APB' in mind, an analogue of MDA... I assume they all work differently in some manner (similar to psychedelics, in general) as a recent ecstasy experience went in very much the opposite direction (although there were some complex variables, namely a crowded small room with lots of strangers, and as such paranoia went through the roof).

I am still very much convinced that these kind of chemicals may help with the social conundrum of ASD, though, and have no idea why current methods of medication focus on everything else except the social aspect and use either addictive drugs (amphetamines) or ones with loads of side effects (antipsychotics). I have to assume then that people with ASD are the unfortunate victims in this mindless war on drugs.

Let me start by saying I am fairly new in my research and study of ASD but hope that I may provide some good input.

Mootoo you are absolutely correct in saying "I have to assume then that people with ASD are the unfortunate victims in this mindless war on drugs."

I 100% agree with you. I have recently been involved in an intense study on the class of drugs called Phenethylamines and Tryptamines. Most of us are familiar with these substances but we know them by different names.

Examples of Phenethylamines include: MDMA, MDA, 6-APB, 2C-B etc
Examples of Tryptamines include: LSD, DMT,DPT, 5-Meo-DiPT (Foxy) etc

In the 1960s at UCLA they did a study with small doses (50 micrograms) of LSD on children with ranging levels of ASD.
The study found remarkable results. Findings include:
1. "In the Socialization Test the social behavior of "looking at the face" was almost uniformly increased by LSD over the control levels."
2. "On the Social Isolation Test the predominant modes of repetitive motor behavior were consistently depressed during the LSD sessions"
3. "Laughing behavior was essentially absent during control sessions but markedly increased in all LSD sessions."

The full article can be found here at neurodiversity
"Modification of Autistic Behavior with LSD-25 "was published in American Journal of Psychiatry, May 1966,

Obviously these and many other studies of its type where abandoned when LSD became a Schedule I substance.
(LSD became illegal in October 1966.)

However since that time, a research chemist by the name of Alexander Shulgin managed to synthesize a large amount of different Phenethylamines and Trpytamines .His notes including synthesis, method of intake, effects, results and findings can found in two publications.
TiHKAL and PiHKAL both of which are online books found here. (This dumb forum will not let me post links until I have atleast 5 posts)

Search for
TiHKAL or PiHKAL they are both in the erowid library.


This part is important, I believe that if there is an entactogen, pyschedelic or psychotropic that could assist in treating ASD, I believe it lies in one of these 2 groups.

For Example:
TiHKAL #4 DIPT (N,N-Diisopropyltryptamine), "My wife's voice is basso, as if she had a cold -- my ears with slight pressure as if my tubes were clogged but they aren't. Radio voices are all low"

Perhaps a substance like DIPT could help ASD symptoms like heightened sensitivity and being overstimulated by loud noises, lights.

Many of these substances also have sound enhancing properties and at low doses perhaps the substance could help in recognizing subtle differences in speech tone, pitch, and accent that alter the meaning.

Mootoo, and really everyone on this board here's where I need your help there are literally 234 unique substances in these 2 drug classes
and yes Mootoo, Every one of them acts a little bit differently. The answer may even be a combination of them. If you have time, please look at the trial notes, especially the experiences and let me know if you feel any of them are worth further investigation.

Shulgin has taken the time to write down every detail of the multiple trials he's had with all of these substances. Please read through them and help me figure out which ones could have the best chance of treatment so that I may further my research.

If I had to start somewhere it would be the 2C*Family (PiHKAL), this group seems to have both the entactogenic qualities found in MDMA but they also contain an element of pyschdelic (i.e. change of light, sound , touch, etc)

As for MJ, my personal substance of choice. I personally believe it is not right for the treatment of ASD, it tends too much toward "introspective" thought, lethargy and the paranoia factor does not (IMO) lend well to assisting people with ASD symptoms. Actually when I think about it smoking MJ pretty much gives me ASD like symptoms 1. I have trouble starting or maintaining conversations. 2. I avoid eye contact 3. Talk a lot, usually about a favorite subject. One-sided conversations are common. Internal thoughts are often verbalized. (According to WebMD those are 3 symptoms of aspergers) =)

Lastly,
Just be yourself. God made us all unique for a reason.


PS
aneurysm wrote "I would not recommend MDMA for anything like this. Sure, it will make you more social for about an hour, but the comedowns and side effects are awful."

anuerysm what you took was what we call a "recreational" dosage , the actual treatment dosages of these substances would be a fraction of that and not have the "hangover" effect caused by such a large dosage. However large dose treatment, could also be effective in long term if used properly. ex.
If you take MDMA at a night club, concert, or party you may have a heightened experience but it leaves you when the substance metabolizes.

If you take MDMA in a quite, peaceful and tranquil environment with close friends, and your friends are prompted to ask you certain questions, you may end up learning something about your inner self that may stay with your for months, years, or a lifetime. (You can't just pick up the tool, you have to know how to use the tool.)

I would attempt to be getting a correct balance of nutrients that would have the same effect on serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine - since most of those are created in the body and rely on correct nutrient levels to produce them in the right amounts - rather than relying on drugs.

Drugs can have the effect of stopping us from producing neurotransmitters, or producting too little or too much of them over time - and that would make the issue more difficult to deal with, not less. It would mean certain parts of the brain would be overactive or underactive, and would have a difficult time changing that after being on them for an length of time - which is why you are supposed to come off SSRI's and ADHD meds slowly.

Those on SSRI and ADHD medication report that it interferes with other things - I recall many saying that especially with ADHD meds, it does make them less hyper and implusive but also makes them feel rather zombie like. They may find things less distracting, but they no longer have the ability to intensely focus the way they used to either. I have heard similar things about SSRI's - people say they take away the "lows" but they also take away the "highs", leaving them feeling numb or just meh much of the time.

Last edited by Kjas on 23 Oct 2012, 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Yup, nutrition is the key. Also I find herbal things a bit less harsh. For example, Rhodiola Rosea was more effective for me than Ritalin, and also didn't happen to spike my blood pressure/pulse from 115/70, 70 pulse to 140/90, 105 pulse.