A truly Herculean task.

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Making friends would seem to be a relatively simple activity which everyone I know manages with ease yet for me it proves to be, as stated in the subject, a truly Herculean task.

Unlike many of the other people posting here, I've never really been overtly bullied. I often felt in school that people were simply putting up with me. I was invited to join people's tables on occasion which is a big deal back in secondary school but then I would be ignored and when I would try to participate in the conversation they would continue on as if I'd said nothing or simply stay quiet. I always thought this was strange, I thought about this repeatedly and the only conclusion I can find is that they invited me as an act of charity but then simply didn't want to do any more than that. I should note that I hadn't been diagnosed in school so I wasn't autistic, I was just weird.

I was able to converse, even become friendly (at least, I think) with some people during school and throughout sixth form but I've never really been friends with anyone. I was never really invited to anything outside of school or sixth form. There seems to be some sort of formula to lasting friendship but it is one that continues to elude me while everyone else I know seems to be quite proficient in its use. Even the "awkward" people bond with other "awkward" people, I can't even manage that.

I've read so many books on body language, Psychology etc. and numerous "self help" types about developing stronger relationships, relating to people and so on. All Psychology books tend to either be pseudo-scientific nonsense based on completely subjective perspectives or empirical and reasonable results derived from excellently designed studies which offer absolutely no valuable insights whatsoever. For the record, I think the only valuable insights into human behaviour will be derived from statistical analysis of many people (which will offer no insight into what each person will do, just what the average person would do and is therefore quite limited itself). Many of the books on non-verbal behaviour have been comprehensive, well laid out etc. but it seems to me that there is only so much proficiency which can be gained by conscious practise - the majority is the ability you're born with.

After finishing my A-levels, I decided to take a gap year (I am attempting to work on many aspects of myself as well as learning to drive to help travel to university). Since college ended, I have had pretty much no contact with anyone aside from close family. I stayed in the house for a few months doing essentially nothing, I am now trying to get out of the house more as I find staying in only serves to foster my depression; I leave for my driving lessons and I sometimes accompany my mother when she does the weekly shop but I still have no concept with my "peers". I have only one person in my life who could be considered close to a friend but she went straight to university and I don't get to see her very often but to be honest, every time I do see her I feel guilty, I think she only comes to see me out of obligation, there are better things she could be doing with her life.

To go back to my initial remark, I am feeling like making friends is a truly Herculean task. I feel depressed all the time (despite being prescribed medication to help me sleep which are supposed to be anti-depressants but they haven't affected my mood at all, if anything due to the progression of my depression, I am more depressed. Does anyone else actually find it this hard or is it truly just me?

It isn't just you. The books are like explanations of jokes, rather than instructions on how to tell one. The shallow social groups of school rely on quick, conditioned responses to establish commonality. Deeper relationships are based on empathy, which can be built if interest can be maintained.

They are definitely shallow. Be that as it may however, it would have been nice to be able to establish that commonality however juvenile it may have been. I can't get people sufficiently interested in me to wish to establish a deeper relationship... Thank-you for your response by the way, I was beginning to worry I may have the same fate here on the forum.

I think a lot of people on this forum will be in the same boat as you. Making friends is difficult even if you have reasonable social skills. Friends need to be compatible people who have mutual respect for one another and often various circumstances break the flow of friendships and they fade away, even if once they were strong. So people can make friends and lose them, which makes all the effort seem futile. Some people just don't have the necessary chemistry to make friends easily and need to go out a lot more than they do to perhaps achieve friends at the same rate as other people do. But it's easy to fall into a rut. Not doing anything for months on end won't gain you friends.

Perhaps you can have a go at getting interested in another person or people, if only for perspective and practice. It is quite easy to get people talking about themselves with a few questions that show you are listening, and afterward, they feel closer to you, and more inclined to think that you are like themselves. That way, you can decide if there's any point in trying to share more of yourself.

I will have absolutely no chance then. I have tried on so many occasions with so many people, if it is just a matter of some mysterious blend of "chemistry" then surely statistically I should have found someone by now? I know this but there isn't many places to go and it isn't like I hadn't tried all the time before that.

I have tried being very interested in other people which is difficult because most are so boring! I once saw on a movie that people will talk endlessly about themselves if you keep asking questions so I tried that and while it did make daily conversations last significantly longer depending on how vain the person was, I still didn't get any further with actually establishing friendship.

What do you think is involved in "having a friendship"?

Aye, I don't find a lot of middle ground between boring and scary. For some people, I keep an egg timer handy, and threaten to use it to limit their speaking time. For me, the breakthrough was a lateral move, as Persig characterizes them. After my parents lost interest, I found some people they would never have known in a more "bohemian" artistic community, where eccentricity is valued.

Difficult to define... Seeing each other regularly (for good friends anyway), enjoying the other persons company, being there for them in a crisis perhaps. As I said it is difficult to put it into a discrete category since friendships can be quite varied and it is fairly subjective but something along those lines.

I don't know about eccentricity. Every single time I find something which interests me (generally from a range of mathematical journals, I don't only subscribe to particular subsets which I like e.g. number theory because even fields I don't like as much still have interesting results) then I focus on that, think about that, talk about this - if I'm really focussed on it then I forget to eat, I ignore people when they talk to me (not purposefully but after I've finished processing what I am thinking about they say they spoke to me)... It hardly seems like something they'll value.

Of course that is only once a friend and I became close they would see that aspect of me but there are numerous blocks in front of that, I'm often described as rude, arrogant, dismissive, patronising and so on. None of these are particularly pleasant things so it doesn't seem like I'd ever have a friend that close, certainly not one that would last (as I mentioned previously about the only real relationship I've ever made).

The thing is that it's not that I don't want friends, I do but I don't think I give that impression.

Well, it definitely is not just you, because I really identified with your struggle. Some people talk about finding opportunities to be with other people, but I could be with other people all day, every day, and I still would not be able to carve out a friendship. I can read about what to do as well, but it never works. I assume my "oddness" shows on the outside, much as I try to hide it. There is something "off" about me, that others pick up on and they are put off. Eventually, I decided to stop hurting myself and gave up. I'm in my 50s, enjoy my job (working at home on my own), and my joy is found in cultivating my hobbies.

I too suffer from depression. It takes massive doses of antidepressants and antipsychotics to keep the depression at bay, not to mention many years of psychotherapy. It is quite a struggle, but to achieve periods of time when all is well (currently), it is totally worth the struggle.

I find a lot of comfort in reading other's posts on this site, though have been having a heck of a time posting anything, because of shame, shame, shame about my "oddness". It was the family mandate that I look normal on the outside so as not to embarrass any of my family members. It is still hard to open my mouth and speak of these issues. So, pi, thanks for your post; it helped me get going.

I would like to start by saying thanks also, it's nice to hear someone who truly does understand what it is like. It isn't exactly like there are numerous opportunities to meet people in non-awkward situations where socialisation is accepted or even encouraged but even if there were I wouldn't get anywhere. I think there is only so much "normalisation" is possible, the truth is we probably always will be considered "odd". I too enjoy some hobbies although I can't fully enjoy what I do and what I would like to do the way I would like to mainly for financial reasons but I don't see this ever being a complete substitute for human bonding. Once again, thank-you for your post, as I said it is nice to know someone understands.

It sounds as if you spend long periods of time unavailable to any hypothetical friends. Perhaps your friends should be a loose group of math enthusiasts, large enough that two are usually "up for air" and available to discuss the latest forays.

I think I have an incomplete set of social instincts. The urge is there, but not much capacity. When I'm too eager to make a friend, I'm vulnerable to con-men.

It's not like you need to be with friends all the time but I would like if they understood a little. I would work on that but I can't even get to the stage where that's an issue because I can't befriend anyone anyway. I'm pretty much always eager just incapable.

How about trying more formal practice at being a friend? I was in a 12-step group for survivors of all kinds of odd family situations, and we used to have picnics, go bowling, etc, just to practice acting normal with each other. I also found a councellor who is something like a paid surrogate friend, or a trusted older sibling. Lately, I've found some video clips from the TV show "The Big Bang Theory" and watching "Sheldon" has helped me see how I too was difficult to socialize.