Being an Aspie and having social phobia

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I think quite a few aspies can attest to not just having impaired social skills but also having social avoidance for fear of ridicule or reprisal. Well of course I took my diagnosis as a, "Ok, so then what?" so as you would imagine it wasn't like a lightbulb going off in my head I already known I've had a problem for a long time. Anyway, I've always had that ability to be social despite Aspergers however after a particular incident(not comfortable discussing it now), it got shut down totally. I think I got diagnosed with social phobia soon after seeing a councilor about it, and well considering how traumatic the incident was it wasn't surprising. Fearing harsh criticism from other people, avoiding strangers whenever possible, when facing confrontation I break out in a sweat.

Perhaps the biggest one for me has to be criticism, I don't take harsh criticism well. not that I take it out on people, I take it out ALOT on myself. I don't want to hurt anyone, so when something goes wrong I usually take it out on myself.

So whats the point of this topic? Simple, the only way is to get back in the game and thats not easy for me. It was hard for me to trust before the incident and now its even harder. My social network is pretty small, only about 1-4 friends I've known since I graduated highschool and my family and all my friends are out of state. So despite having friends networked through the computer (we hop on a voice chat server, chat, play games, etc.) there is no friends nearby other than my family.

To be honest, even now I feel by even talking about this on a forum that I am going to be ridiculed and poked fun at simply because I am talking about it. Someone will probably say, " Grow a thick skin ya pansy!" or, " Bah you pathetic piece of garbage, stop whining and get over it!" Yeah, I'm a real big ball of sunshine aren't I . Well I figured I would give it a shot, if you mock me go ahead not like I haven't heard it before. Oh great now I feel depressed.

Your profile says you are undiagnosed, but your above post mentions "my diagnosis."

Just thought I'd point that out. I usually check before I read posts that are describing one's experiences, just to know whether they are coming "straight from the horse's mouth."

Me too, so I have, possibly like you, just refrained from mentioning anything that I dislike or find irritating in front of others.

Bear in mind, when I said diagnosed it was with Social phobia, Aspergers was confirmed by another doctor but another doctor "trusted" by our insurance has to run tests to make it "official". So in essence the whole diagnosis is true but the insurance doesn't buy it so they have to make me go through their red tape. Understandable considering they don't want to potentially fork out money/resources to a guy that could be faking.

I have only in the last two years overcome my own paralyzing social phobia. It didn't develop from a particular moment, but rather over the course of about a year when I was in sixth grade. I'm 28 now. I was depressed bordering on (and sometimes crossing over to) suicidal tendencies for that entire duration. It is definitely worth doing something about this before the hole gets deeper. Here's a quick rundown of how my personal escape took place: (this is all before I ever heard of AS or HFA)

In college I came to the realization that my biggest issue was fear. It was not so much that I did any one thing in particular wrong, but rather the entire presentation I gave of myself when I was social. I realized "normal" people could almost smell the fear, and as soon as they did, they acted like wild dogs fighting for a scrap of food. They would push for every advantage, humiliate me, attack me, etc., and all without even knowing why they did it -- it was pure instinct for them. I would give in and accept it helplessly, and the helplessness was obvious and only aggravated them further. I finally came to the realization that even when people are being "friendly", they are also being selfish animals, and the only differences between humans and animals really are the level of complexity of our interactions and the particular details of the instinctual behaviors that come into play. It is human-eat-human almost as much as it is dog-eat-dog, but we are way more subtle.

So I started studying dominance. I watched when people interacted, attempted to determine who was the most dominant of the group, and what signals were passed in the process. I started with what I had read about and seen in wolves and other animals. I knew that direct eye contact was threatening from personal experience. I also knew that animals will posture in an attempt to appear more threatening and larger to their opponents. When I looked for things like this, I started noticing some things:

1. Posture: The dominant person will stand up as tall as they can. This is more threatening. Have you ever noticed that taller people are more intimidating? Likewise, the subordinate person(s) will slouch slightly in an effort to appear less threatening and avoid provoking an attack (in the form of an insult, etc.) from the alpha.

2. Eye contact: The alpha will look directly into the eyes of the subordinate until the subordinate looks away. If the dominant is angry or intending to be threatening, they will continue to stare into the eyes of the subordinate after they look away. Otherwise, they will typically look away before the subordinate looks back and may refuse to make eye contact again. The subordinate often will not try again, and may even go to great lengths to avoid making eye contact at all. (You can see what NTs probably think of we on the spectrum, with our unusual patterns in eye contact.)

3. Eybrows: The alpha will keep their eyebrows raised. This makes the eyes appear larger, drawing attention to eye contact and making it appear more threatening. The subordinate will furrow or lower the brow. Sometimes, you will see someone who is angry furrow their brow. In an alpha, this indicates that the subordinate has been determined to be sufficiently threatening that a dominance battle will soon ensue. In a subordinate, this usually indicates that the subordinate is not happy about the alpha's intrusion, but will probably do nothing about it, at least not in view of the alpha.

4. Head: The alpha will tilt the head back and "look down the nose" at the subordinate. The subordinate will tilt the head down and look up to the alpha, if they make eye contact at all. This is another expression of the "tall is threatening" theme as seen in point number 1, Posturing.

5. Chin: The chin will jut out and/or down in the alpha, causing them to appear to have a stronger jaw. The subordinate will clamp the chin up and back.

6. Shoulders: The shoulders of the alpha will go back, pushing the chest out and causing them to appear larger. Likewise, the subordinate will slouch their shoulders forward and make the chest look smaller and more concave.

7. General demeanor: The alpha will appear relaxed and unthreated. This is a general message that the alpha is so powerful that they need not fear the subordinate. The alpha may also be less polite, though extreme rudeness typically is not tolerated by the group as a whole. The subordinate will be very polite, offer resources before they are requested or demanded, and will typically seem tense and eager to please.

When my eyes became opened to these things, I came to the conclusion that I was permanently hardwired to present as a subordinate. But the more I considered it, the more I realized that I had been bullied into this behavior, no matter how natural it felt to me. (I later realized that it was my difficulty in reading people -- including myself -- that had allowed things to get this bad.) I made up my mind to present as dominant, so I could stop being pushed around by everyone. I knew I could not be happy until I gained self respect, and I could not gain self respect until I gained at least a little respect from others. I followed the philosophy of "fake it 'til you make it", and over the course of the next 5 years or so, I gradually learned to respect myself as much as I pretended for other people. It took getting them off my back long enough to be able to think clearly about the issue and realize how much I'm really worth.

Naturally, I still often find myself in situations where I cannot read what is happening around me. (This is how I came to the realization that I'm an Aspie, not simply someone who acts subordinate all the time.) Now instead of panicking, I bluff. I go over the list and make sure I'm presenting dominance on all fronts, and then I watch and wait until I start to get a clear enough picture to work with things. It's not easy, but it does work. I hope I've been helpful in some way.

One word of caution: Ease into this if you use it. If you suddenly start acting different, those you know will feel threatened and attack. Also, until you've practiced it a bit, you may not present properly, and people will think you're psycho (because they feel disturbed themselves) if you send them mixed signals. Take at least a month to build up to full strength.

I feel the same way. Its so hard to try to say it or even to explain how it feels when in certain situations or when something happens. The other day I was seriously chewed out by a normally pleasent customer. She insulted and ridiculed me in front of my co workers and customers. And I had no idea what to do. I didn't even give her her drink wrong she just was watching me as I did it. And sure I made one mistake and mis heard her, but I know what she did was over the line. But it just crushed me and everyone was like "don't let it get to you" "don't go to her level." But it was like a snowball effect. First I was upset because of the "attack" and then I felt even worse because I didn't think I handled wrong. Then I felt even worse that it was wrong to show that I was upset. That whole day just sucked.

But it is events like those that I strive to avoid. I know that I act passive and submissive in order to avoid conflict and most of the times it works. I don't really get picked on, but people just tiptoe around me alot and treat me as if I have a fragile psyche, which I don't. It takes alot to make me upset like that woman made me, but as a result I get "mothered" alot by people and it is seriously annoying. But all in all, acting passive really doesn't do me any good because it doesn't help me to stand up for myself when it does matter. But I am always afraid of doing something wrong, and when I am not afraid I am mostly overwhelmed and just shut down.

I have a fair amount of social phobia... I am not really sure if I have Asperger or if I just have a unique way of thinking combined with social phobia.

Its comes up in new situations mostly... but sometimes I can just be talking to an authority figure (boss, professor... etc) and it creeps in. Its quite debilitating when this happens, I do terrible in job interviews and performance evaluations.

But generally this is how it goes. I am some place new, I don't know anything so I am very cautious. I don't want to offend, and I don't want to be shown ignorant, so I am very timid and don't speak until I know how things are going to operate. For example in a lab for a class, I am suposed to have a partner...but I don't and I don't know where I am supposed to sit... I stand around looking forlorn but don't bother to ask the lab supervisor. I wait until someone tells me I look lost, then it gets taken care of.

It's even worse when there is an element of social interaction that is new to me. I am timid because I don't know what to do... but then people will get frustrated with you if you don't do it fast enough. Then if people are yelling at me to get moving faster I go slower, but I have to figure out exactly what I am supposed to say. So my all ready messed up communication suffers and it is a becomes a downward spiral.

Once I am slightly more comfortable, it gets much better. I know when things are going to happen, I know how things are going to happen. I know generally what I must say not to offend most people. Some odd things may happen every once and a while, but in general its pretty good. If I have to converse with any women, it gets a bit more awkward... but I can manage usually. My brain is starting to piece together everything that is going on and every new bit of information I get helps me. I still may talk strange, but in general people just view it as quirky... and it is not preventing me from doing much.

If I am really comfortable, and have been in a place a long time my brain kicks into high gear. With all the information I have obtained, I start to over analyze the situation. I pick up on details other people leave out, I notice social interactions and what people say and try to piece together reasons for why people do things. I don't have much anxiety, in fact I'll feel like "big man on campus" and walk around with a huge smile. I might even be able to talk with women naturally. I still have a strange way of speaking, but I try to use it to the fullest comedic effect... and sometimes will say the odd thing I know will make people laugh.

So eventually I overcome my anxiety, but it takes so long... and it starts out so uncomfortable that I rarely get to the last stage. I was working at a job for about 3 years before I started to really feel comfortable.

But I have to use my brain to start to understand anything. I know I don't understand social rules, so I end up being timid since I don't know what is going on. And I am always very cautious when I don't know something... I don't like to jump to conclusions or assume anything. I never want to be completely sure of myself and end up being wrong, that is the worst kind of shame. Once I learn on my own, or even better once people tell me what is going on... I start piecing it all together in my brain and then I can go ahead and be assured about what I am doing.

So I don't know if this is AS or what. I know I feel anxiety. And I know this isn't at all like how usual people work, they usually have a less naive approach to normal things... and have a just do it attitude and can pick on things and adapt on the fly.

It's AS alright. You pretty closely described me, except that I've learned to appear like I'm in the final stage ("big man on campus") when I'm still in the first one ("what the hell is going on?").

A thought struck me when you said normal people have a less naive approach and adapt on the fly. I was just reading last night a book called Machine Learning, which describes various algorithms for getting a program to learn a particular behavior. One of the chapters mentioned how each different approach introduces unique biases into exactly what will be learned. (Apparently there is some kind of mathematical theorem that states that it is impossible to create an algorithm which does not introduce such biases.) My thought was, NTs have a much stronger bias than we do, which makes them more prepared in certain situations, particularly social ones, whereas we Aspies have a different, weaker bias that makes us more prepared in other situations, particularly logical thinking. It means they literally have a priori knowledge in the form of instincts for those situations. I don't think they're really so great at adapting, in other words.

Anyhow, I guess that's enough for that particular tangent...

I have social phobia and Aspergers.

This thread has some excellent advice. And you are not alone with this problem. I developed a terribly debilitating social anxiety over the course of about 5 years. As each misunderstanding and embarrassment developed, I withdrew more and more. I was ruled by fear and didn't realize it. It was terrible. I didn't have any confidence or much self esteem. I quit my job because I was an awful perfectionist and couldn't handle the criticism. I took another job where everyone smelled my fear and pounced. It was worse! I left that job with serious symptoms of PTSD.

I'm back in the game now. Fear was the biggest issue to overcome. I needed to push myself and be determined. I use breathing exercises to get past the anxiety. I was also lucky enough to get a job with alot less social pressure. But it really is a game and a state of mind. People just act tough. I read books on the military to get an idea on how they train. You need to exercise your mind and body to develop some toughness and strength. I hope that doesn't sound like "grow a thick skin," but even Martin Luther King -- who preached to have a tough mind and a tender heart -- trained people in techniques of non-violence. I have also found Buddhist exercises helpful. Anything to clear my mind and build up my mind and body.

I am no tough guy. That's for sure. The symptoms are still there. But as long as I stand up straight and show no fear, I'm OK. There's this tough guy at work, who constantly boasts of growing up in Bed-Sty in Brooklyn. This guy would have gotten to me before, but I just relax, stand straight, use few words. What's the worse that can happen? (If your mind does play out all the horrible options, please stop and stick with reality and try not to be so negative.)