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What do you think
He IS gay, he suspects you are, and others suspect you are, too 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
He IS gay, he suspects you are, others don't suspect it 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
He IS gay, he doesn't suspect you are; but others might 20%  20%  [ 1 ]
He IS gay, he doesn't suspect you are, and neither do others 20%  20%  [ 1 ]
He is NOT gay, he might suspect you are, and so do others 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
He is NOT gay, he might suspect you are, but others don't 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
He is NOT gay, he doesn't suspect you are, but others might 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
He is NOT gay, he doesn't suspect you are, and neither do others 60%  60%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 5

BenderRodriguez
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01 Mar 2020, 11:07 am

Just to make another point clear: when I'm talking about "anti-Russian" attitudes, I'm speaking mostly about the USSR and its legacy. There's a lot more to Russian culture than this and personally I'm a huge fan of their writers and composers for instance.


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QFT
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01 Mar 2020, 11:26 am

Fireblossom wrote:
My point was simply that lots of straight cis people are perfectly fine with homosexuality. I am aware that people who aren't still exist as well.


The way I see it is that there are a "lot" of people in either side, simply because the split is between 80/20, 50/50 and 20/80 and -- given the size of population -- any one of those will put lots of people on either side. So when you said there was only THREE people on one of the sides (no matter which one it happens to be) it was quite surprising.

Fireblossom wrote:
Here they seem to be mostly elderly and/or from the countryside (or super religious.)


So even this sentence right here implies it's more than three. Maybe you mean to say that among your friends it's 3? Well, among my friends there are 0 on each side -- simply because I don't have any friends (although I wish I did as you could see from my posts).

Fireblossom wrote:
[/I've heard that that's widely a thing in the USA, too, though there are exceptions.


I heard this too. But, interestingly enough, I heard that *both* about being pro-gay *and* about being anti-gay as a US thing. Maybe the real issue is that the view of French is only the business of French but the view of Americans is the whole worlds business -- simply because America acts like worlds daddy of sorts.

Fireblossom wrote:
BTW I am positively surprised on how many people in Japan accept homosexuality; I expected the number to be smaller there.


But I thought you just said that you were assuming that being anti-gay is just an American thing?

Or are you saying that this statement applied only to countries of European origin? So if China is anti-gay it's fine since they aren't White but if Russia is anti-gay then it's bad since they are? Well, don't you find that double standard unfair?



QFT
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01 Mar 2020, 11:48 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Surely there is more to Russian culture than just the fact that Russia is still quite homophobic?


Not just Russian culture but any culture thats old. Homosexuality being accepted is a modern phenomenon.

That's not universally true. See History of homosexuality.

QFT wrote:
So a gay that is interested in, say, 19-th century culture feels like an oxymoron.

It is certainly possible to be interested in, even to admire, some aspects of 19th century culture without necessarily agreeing with every aspect of it. It's possible to be interested in some aspects of early 19th-century American southern culture without approving of slavery, for example.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
In the U.S.A. there was at least the beginnings of progress on that front in the 1970's. The most educated and most socially tolerant people, at least, were beginning to be in favor of gay rights. And there was a highly visible organized gay rights movement.


Thats a bit odd since it wasn't de-criminalized until very recently.

What didn't happen until 2003 was that the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that sodomy laws were unconstitutional. However, before then, many though not all states had already repealed them on their own.

QFT wrote:
So I guess, based off of that data, the pro-gay movement became widespread in Berkeley in 1997 (and yes Berkeley is where I was). Now since Berkeley is supposed to be far left, then in the rest of the US it must have been even later than that, or so I would assume.

The LGBT rights movement was "widespread" in Berkeley long before 1997, although apparently there was still quite a bit of anti-gay prejudice there too.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Or perhaps they were Soviet spies who decided to turn themselves in?


I am not sure I understand it. Can you elaborate?

Just an example of one possible way that someone could leave the Soviet Union and emigrate to the West. I recall hearing about quite a few Soviet spies who decided to defect.


Spies. Whether they come in from the cold, or not, are small in number.


I was confused about the part of them turning themselves in. Why did they do it? And they worked to which of the two governments and turned themselves in to whom?

naturalplastic wrote:
The point is that MANY groups were oppressed in the old Soviet Union. A number of religious groups, including Jews, were mistreated well into the Seventies. "Save Soviet Jewry" was a common bumper sticker in the US then.

This guy whom the OP met could just as easily have said "I knew folks who fled Russia because they were Jews". But that would not be a reason to assume that the guy he was talking to was himself Jewish. Likewise with gays.


As far as the Jewish thing I know it very well. My own family is Jewish. While my family and relatives all stayed in the Soviet Union until the 90-s, my mom has Jewish friends who moved to Israel in the 70s.

However, you have to keep in mind, that Russian government didn't just decide to release the Jews on it's own; it was a result of international pressure. And this brings me to the following question: why would there be an international pressure in regards to gays if homosexuality was considered a crime in the US too?

Yes I heard you guys saying that the public opinion in the US was more mixed than in Russia and that sometimes the anti-gay laws in the US weren't fully enforced. But the question remains: why would US government be *actively* helping people if they think they are committing a crime? And they *would* need to be *actively* helping them -- since the Soviet Union wasn't going to release anyone without a lot of foreign pressure.



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01 Mar 2020, 12:13 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
You know, extreme majority of people I know are cis and heterosexual, yet I know only three people who admit being anti-gay. And two of them, one of my uncles and his wife, I heard about from my mom and have never personally heard them say anything anti-gay. Sure, some might be in the closet with being anti-gay but majority, including elders, are clearly fine with it. One of my cousins is a Christian priest and he doesn't seem to have a problem with it, either.

And before you ask, I'm a straight cis woman.

Just something for you to think about.


If you go here
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013 ... osexuality
you will find it far more mixed than you make it out to be.

They didn't list Finland so maybe that is part of the explanation of why what you said doesn't match what they show. But it's still weird since Finland used to be part of Russia and they listed Russia.


That article proves her right. Not wrong. It shows that in the US most folks believe that society should accept homosexuality (the US and western European countries).


The way it proved her wrong is that she seemed to say that more than 99% of people are pro-gay and less than 1% is anti-gay. Well that's not the stats that you have here in the US. The stats is that there are full 33% that are anti-gay.

By the way even that 33% can increase if you include gray areas. Here is an interesting question. It's common knowledge that pro-gay ideas are taught in schools and anti-gay ideas are taught at home. But wait a second. Don't school teachers have biological kids of their own? So they are teaching kids of other parents something they don't want to teach their own kids? Don't you think it's hypocritical?

So going back to stats, you have to be careful how you phrase that question. So the question is "should homosexuality be accepted". And they can say "yes" -- in reference that they want everyone outside of their friends and family to accept it -- but they still wouldn't want to be associated with them. Kind of like "not in my backyard" mentality.



naturalplastic
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01 Mar 2020, 12:40 pm

QFT wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Surely there is more to Russian culture than just the fact that Russia is still quite homophobic?


Not just Russian culture but any culture thats old. Homosexuality being accepted is a modern phenomenon.

That's not universally true. See History of homosexuality.

QFT wrote:
So a gay that is interested in, say, 19-th century culture feels like an oxymoron.

It is certainly possible to be interested in, even to admire, some aspects of 19th century culture without necessarily agreeing with every aspect of it. It's possible to be interested in some aspects of early 19th-century American southern culture without approving of slavery, for example.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
In the U.S.A. there was at least the beginnings of progress on that front in the 1970's. The most educated and most socially tolerant people, at least, were beginning to be in favor of gay rights. And there was a highly visible organized gay rights movement.


Thats a bit odd since it wasn't de-criminalized until very recently.

What didn't happen until 2003 was that the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that sodomy laws were unconstitutional. However, before then, many though not all states had already repealed them on their own.

QFT wrote:
So I guess, based off of that data, the pro-gay movement became widespread in Berkeley in 1997 (and yes Berkeley is where I was). Now since Berkeley is supposed to be far left, then in the rest of the US it must have been even later than that, or so I would assume.

The LGBT rights movement was "widespread" in Berkeley long before 1997, although apparently there was still quite a bit of anti-gay prejudice there too.

QFT wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Or perhaps they were Soviet spies who decided to turn themselves in?


I am not sure I understand it. Can you elaborate?

Just an example of one possible way that someone could leave the Soviet Union and emigrate to the West. I recall hearing about quite a few Soviet spies who decided to defect.


Spies. Whether they come in from the cold, or not, are small in number.


I was confused about the part of them turning themselves in. Why did they do it? And they worked to which of the two governments and turned themselves in to whom?

naturalplastic wrote:
The point is that MANY groups were oppressed in the old Soviet Union. A number of religious groups, including Jews, were mistreated well into the Seventies. "Save Soviet Jewry" was a common bumper sticker in the US then.

This guy whom the OP met could just as easily have said "I knew folks who fled Russia because they were Jews". But that would not be a reason to assume that the guy he was talking to was himself Jewish. Likewise with gays.


As far as the Jewish thing I know it very well. My own family is Jewish. While my family and relatives all stayed in the Soviet Union until the 90-s, my mom has Jewish friends who moved to Israel in the 70s.

However, you have to keep in mind, that Russian government didn't just decide to release the Jews on it's own; it was a result of international pressure. And this brings me to the following question: why would there be an international pressure in regards to gays if homosexuality was considered a crime in the US too?

Yes I heard you guys saying that the public opinion in the US was more mixed than in Russia and that sometimes the anti-gay laws in the US weren't fully enforced. But the question remains: why would US government be *actively* helping people if they think they are committing a crime? And they *would* need to be *actively* helping them -- since the Soviet Union wasn't going to release anyone without a lot of foreign pressure.


you're talking nonsense.

Your biggest NON fact is that the "US Government considered homosexuality to be a crime". The same US govt that pressures other countries to do stuff (ie the entity that does foreign policy). That entity is the FEDERAL govt. Anti homosexual laws, and anti sodomy laws are local and state. Nothing to do with the Federal govt. And even prior to stone wall most of the laws were forgotten archaic relics that were never enforced even at the local level.

So the US Feds were not really being hypocritical if they help Russian gays escape to here in the US.



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01 Mar 2020, 12:53 pm

QFT wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Here they seem to be mostly elderly and/or from the countryside (or super religious.)


So even this sentence right here implies it's more than three. Maybe you mean to say that among your friends it's 3? Well, among my friends there are 0 on each side -- simply because I don't have any friends (although I wish I did as you could see from my posts).


Please re-read my earlier post. What I said was:

Quote:
You know, extreme majority of people I know are cis and heterosexual, yet I know only three people who admit being anti-gay. And two of them, one of my uncles and his wife, I heard about from my mom and have never personally heard them say anything anti-gay. Sure, some might be in the closet with being anti-gay but majority, including elders, are clearly fine with it. One of my cousins is a Christian priest and he doesn't seem to have a problem with it, either.


See the part in bold? There I clearly say that I'm talking about people I know, not of Finns in general. Also, none of those three are my friends; they're all my much older relatives.

Quote:
I heard this too. But, interestingly enough, I heard that *both* about being pro-gay *and* about being anti-gay as a US thing. Maybe the real issue is that the view of French is only the business of French but the view of Americans is the whole worlds business -- simply because America acts like worlds daddy of sorts.


The whole world (more or less anyway) keeps an eye on America in a way than no other because America has a lots of power over the world economically and culturally, as well as military power when it comes down to it. It's like if you're someone of two meters in height and 200 kilos in weight among 160 cm 50 kilo people; the big and powerfull one is bound to be noticed.

Quote:
But I thought you just said that you were assuming that being anti-gay is just an American thing?


When did I say that? Do you mean this:

Quote:
My point was simply that lots of straight cis people are perfectly fine with homosexuality. I am aware that people who aren't still exist as well. Here they seem to be mostly elderly and/or from the countryside (or super religious.) I've heard that that's widely a thing in the USA, too, though there are exceptions.


I meant that I've heard that USA has a similiar divide with Finland on who's antigay and who isn't. I'm fully aware that being anti-gay is anything but just USA thing; in fact, USA is pretty safe comparing to many countries in Africa and Asia. Some countries in Eastern Europe have it pretty bad too, apparently.

Quote:
Or are you saying that this statement applied only to countries of European origin? So if China is anti-gay it's fine since they aren't White but if Russia is anti-gay then it's bad since they are? Well, don't you find that double standard unfair?


I'm not saying anything like that and what I said has nothing to do with race. There are no double standards, either. I simply brougth up Japan because I'm interested in Japanese culture and language and have been studying them, but sexual minority rights aren't something I've put much focus on, so I was positively surprised when I relized that the number of anti-gay people was smaller than I thought. If the amount of anti-gay people was less in Russia than I 've thought, then I'd be positively surprised about that too even if it was a really high number. Same with all the other countries.



naturalplastic
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01 Mar 2020, 12:56 pm

QFT wrote:
BenderRodriguez wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
However there ARE regions of eastern Europe that were either part of the old Soviet Union (Ukraine, Belarus), or were separate countries that were dominated by the old USSR (Poland, Bulgaria, etc)that were and are culturally similar to Russia though.


Since we're derailing :wink: : I haven't met a lot of Bulgarians, but some of the strongest anti-Russian attitudes I've met came from Polish and Romanian people (the first do have a Slavic language but are predominantly Catholic, while the former are predominantly Eastern Orthodox but speak a Romanic language. Both are EU members). Both had a turbulent relationship with the Russians over the centuries, resented ending up under the USSR influence and considered the outcome to have had a destructive influence on their culture, not to mention economy.


My opinion on Eastern Europeans -- including poles -- is that, while they hate Russians, they still have a Russian mindset. Its perfectly possible. Like I resent that my mom is so controlling yet a lot of quirks that I retain I learned from her.

As far as Finland goes I knew it was part of Russia before the 1919 but I didn't know that it was going back and forth between Russia and Sweden. Now that naturalplastic said that it was, it makes more sense why it doesn't share as much similarities with Russia culturally..

By the way Poland was also going back and forth between Russia and "something"; maybe even Germany -- at least it was torn between two sides during World War 2. Still, however, when I talk to Poles they seem to have Russian feel to them. Maybe it's just their language that is similar to Russian. But then again, similar languages is usually a sign of historic ties.

The fact that Ukraine is culturally Russian is something I know for a fact though. Just look up Kievlian Rus. That doesn't mean Russia should take the whole Ukraine -- just the fact that I admitted I am culturally like my mom doesn't mean my mom should force me to live with her -- but Russia certainly should keep Crimea since most of it's citizens are Russians not Ukrainians. But that's a different can of worms.

As far as the rest of Ukraine goes -- even though I would say no Russia shouldn't take it (nor is it trying to by the way) it's perfectly fine to acknowledge that they have a lot of similarities to Russians. And the sane goes for majority of Slavic countries and especially former USSR. Do they hate Russians? Yes. Are they culturally similar to Russians? Also yes. It's quite ironic but it's true.


Folks can be similar in mindset and still hate each others guts.

Poland was a great power. that would kick its neighbors asses in the 1600s. But its fortune reversed in the 1700s.

By the time America was put on the map, Poland was erased from the map because Prussia, Austria, and Russia divided it up. The Main part was ruled by Czarist Russia. It became independent after the first world war, But then got divied up AGAIN in 1939 by Hitler and Stalin. The subsequent invasion by Germany and then Russia kicked off the second World War. Poland was freed from Nazi occupation in 1945 only to become a puppet state of the Soviet Union. So yes Poland was fought over between Germany and Russia. And was occupied by Russia in both Czarist and in Soviet times. Consequently hates Russia. But the Poles are fellow Slavs and have a cultural affinity with Russia and other east European Slavic countries despite that.

Also eastern Europe is more backward (was that way before Soviet Domination, and Soviet Domination kept them even more frozen in amber in time) and tends to have more archaic attitudes about things than does the more affluent and advanced western Europe.



Iphone31966
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20 Nov 2020, 8:26 pm

I think he sounds gay. He should have picked up the vibe you are not interested.



nomad48
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22 Nov 2020, 11:11 pm

If you were employed there, I can see the concern of bullying from a coworker, but, if you don't work there, you could find another restaurant to study or if someone is making you feel uncomfortable do what most women do, when a guy starts a conversation with them, look at your phone.



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23 Nov 2020, 2:39 am

nomad48 wrote:
If you were employed there, I can see the concern of bullying from a coworker, but, if you don't work there, you could find another restaurant to study or if someone is making you feel uncomfortable do what most women do, when a guy starts a conversation with them, look at your phone.


This thread is several months old so, as of now, I am in a different state after the school became remote due to COVID -- although I plan to come back there eventually. Back when I was there, though, I went to that restaurant few more times and I haven't seen that man after that one incident. The employees weren't bullying me either.

However, none of this alleviates my concern, which is what do people think. Because you see, if they think at that restaurant that I am gay, then they would tell to others elsewhere and so then others at other places would think I am gay too. So simply stopping going to that restaurant wouldn't address it, would it.

Now, I don't actually "know" they think I am gay, but the problem is that I also don't know that they don't. What I am concerned about is *possibility*, and thats what I am asking here: how likely do you think they think I am gay?



kraftiekortie
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23 Nov 2020, 4:41 am

They probably forgot about you.....



QFT
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23 Nov 2020, 2:05 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
They probably forgot about you.....


People tend to remember me. Maybe its because I look different (messy hair and all) or maybe its because its unusual for people to study in the restaurants as regularly as I do. I remember few years ago I visitted Ann Arbor (where I did my first ph.d.). It was more than 5 years since I graduated from there, and the old lady in Japanese restaurant still remembered me. Its true though that there are other places where they didn't. Like I went to Jimmy Jones to try to find out the name of the girl who tried talking to me back when I was in Ann Arbor whom I stupidly ignored. They had no idea who I am or who she is. But thats because Jimmy Jones changes employers while a place like Japanese restaurant has the same employers. Well, as far as that guy that this thread is about, he talked to me in Indian restaurant, and yes, at least "some" employers there know me. I remember I used to go there regularly during my first few years, then I didn't go there for a while and then when I went there again they said "do you have lots of school work again" or something along those lines: they knew I came there to study.