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Honey69
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05 Oct 2024, 8:10 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/04/opin ... &sgrp=c-cb


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Mona Pereth
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05 Oct 2024, 2:12 pm

Some really twisted reasoning here, in an effort to argue that anti-Zionism = "antisemitism":

Quote:
But antisemitism is a shape-shifting virus, which has persisted over centuries and across cultures and political systems because it is able to attach itself to the reigning (or at least fashionable) convictions of the day. It also casts a spell on leading members of the thinking class, from Martin Luther to Karl Marx to T.S. Eliot to Alice Walker. People attracted to grand theories of everything, as intellectuals often are, tend to gravitate toward singular causes, sweeping solutions, unsuspected “facts” and decisive explanations.

A century ago, the grand theories were about the evils of capitalism or the hierarchies of race — and Jews wound up on the wrong end of both theories. Today, the grand theory concerns so-called settler colonialism. Not surprisingly, Jews got the short end of this stick, too.

Settler colonialism is not a "grand theory of everything." It is a specific category of behaviors.

Quote:
Zionism, which since the days of the Maccabees has been the most enduring anticolonial struggle in history, is now the epitome of what college activists seem to think is colonialism, the only solution to which is its eradication.

The situation of Israel/Palestine today is very different from the situation of Judaea in the days of the Maccabees. The Maccabean revolt was indeed an anti-colonial struggle. The behavior of the state of Israel today is very different.

Things in Israel/Palestine today could have been very different from today's state of Israel if, for example, Jews had gradually immigrated to Palestine over a period of centuries, one small group at a time, gradually becoming a majority, without evicting people who were already there. Had that happened, then the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 might have been an act of anti-colonialism rather than an act of colonialism.

For more about this issue, see the separate thread Israel/Palestine and settler-colonialism.

I agree that there is a real danger of anti-Zionism turning into bigotry against Jews. And I agree that it's important to counteract the latter -- but NOT by obfuscating the situation in Israel/Palestine.


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roronoa79
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05 Oct 2024, 7:17 pm

How many times do Zionists need to be told that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism? Zionists who equate Israel and Zionism with Jews are endangering Jews to further the political interests of Israel and its allies. Zionism has brought nothing but danger and death to the Jewish people.

Mona Pereth wrote:
The situation of Israel/Palestine today is very different from the situation of Judaea in the days of the Maccabees. The Maccabean revolt was indeed an anti-colonial struggle. The behavior of the state of Israel today is very different.

Things in Israel/Palestine today could have been very different from today's state of Israel if, for example, Jews had gradually immigrated to Palestine over a period of centuries, one small group at a time, gradually becoming a majority, without evicting people who were already there. Had that happened, then the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 might have been an act of anti-colonialism rather than an act of colonialism.

Any time a Zionist tries to claim Zionism is anti-colonial, I want to direct them to Thomas Herzl, writing in a letter to British colonialist Cecil Rhodes:
Quote:
You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews… How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.

Zionist has ALWAYS been colonial. Always has been, always will be. It's about stealing land, destroying indigenous culture, and replacing it with overwhelmingly European and American culture. Telling yourself Zionism is not colonial is an exercise in denial.


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Last edited by roronoa79 on 05 Oct 2024, 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bee33
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05 Oct 2024, 7:28 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
How many times do Zionists need to be told that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism?

I think you meant to say that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism.



roronoa79
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05 Oct 2024, 7:48 pm

bee33 wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
How many times do Zionists need to be told that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism?

I think you meant to say that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism.

OH NO. Fixed that. Gotta love typos in contentious discussions, sigh.


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Diagnoses: AS, Depression, General & Social Anxiety
I guess I just wasn't made for these times.
- Brian Wilson

Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides