Societal Standards vs WP Rules about criticizing religions

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I personally don't see criticism in this at all; what I do see is a modern day version of Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The "so called" progressives are the ones who escaped. When they come back and try and tell the others still chained that what they see is an illusion and is not reality, they are met with hate and ridicule.

It seems more like most people are following the rules/guidelines but some disagree with them - both the rules/guidelines and opinions being expressed.

WP's rules, verbatim:

I hurt.

Do you care?

Disparaging remarks about Catholics, Christians, Christianity, “The Catholic Church”, Church, Religion, “Religious people” church leaders hurt.

WP policy says you cannot make personal attacks but you can criticize “Religion” all you want. It appears self contradictory to me because being a Catholic, being a Christian is an essential part of me. You cannot criticize one without criticizing the other.

Sometimes I just stop reading WP, or go away until it doesn’t hurt as much. But it still hurts.

I won’t use the word “toxic” to describe another human being, or a group of human beings, because it is too dehumanizing. It always hurts when other talk this way about me.

Do you care? Does hurting me please you?

It's very hard to find the needed compassion when an adult, who is a member of the most mainstream and dominant religion, finds it hurtful that other people might object to some of the terrible actions of that religion and religious leaders. The problem is that you have way too thin of a skin, because reading criticisms of the world's most powerful belief system should not hurt. I can't coddle you because you are overly sensitive. It's just an unreasonable thing for you to ask.

When I call an organization or belief system toxic, my goal is not to cause offense. I’m simply saying how I feel about the policies and/or doctrine that cause harm. An organization can stop being toxic if they make changes.

I’m sorry you’ve felt hurt, but there are problems that transcend that. I have a lot of respect for people who are fighting for change in the Church.

I think the same thing happened to Blitz's thread. It was intended to be about something else, and it death spiraled into distractions. It was unfortunate.



I can relate to this, absolutely.



I don't know. On other forums, I've only ever reported obvious spam posts. I haven't reported anything here, because I'm new and I'm not really sure where the cultural lines are. I might change my mind later, but I very much value free speech....

In a way, I don't mind the hurtful things remaining, so that they are part of the observable record, and folks can decide for themselves. It does sting quite a bit, yes, and it sucks, for sure. Once I process them (I'm still processing, and now I have new things to process in this thread), but I really dislike censorship. My record is there for all to see, and so are those who have directly said hurtful things to me, and I'd prefer it that way.





I could have written this post.

I've been processing for the past few days, and darn it, Fenn, NOW is when the tears escaped. It sucks that I'm feeling the way that I am, and I was kinda hoping I was alone, so that others weren't dealing with it, too. On the other hand, it gives me encouragement to stay, to know that I'm not alone.

To avoid derailing this thread, here is the related one:

viewtopic.php?t=423899

It is usual for threads to get derailed. It bothered me at first until I realized I was doing it also. Why it happens so often here? My guess is executive dysfunction.


Catholics criticize Catholicism all the time, Jews Judaism etc. Outsiders doing it gets tricky. In recent years the idea that no outsiders should opine about groups because they do not have the lived experience has gained currency. I have never agreed with that. Sometimes outsiders have insights that insiders do not because insiders are too close to a situation. That said if an outsider feels the need to criticize a group or religion they need to do their research and proceed with caution.

Obviously religion is a personal and emotional subject. But this section is named Politics, Philosophy, and Religion so religion will be discussed. The rules are more lenient for this section then the others so it is not for everybody and for others there are times this best be avoided.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 30 Nov 2024, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I’ve found some behavior/opinions expressed over the past few days horrible - one or two things having been removed. However, I think we need to keep our criticism on ideas rather than people. Sometimes individuals who hold and express prejudice in its various forms are simply restating that which they’ve always been taught. My brother had homophobic beliefs for a long time. It took a close examination of his beliefs and research for him to change.

I don’t want anyone to experience pain although that doesn’t mean we’re obligated to stop criticizing ideas and organizations as long as we abide by the rules here. Outside criticism can be especially important because otherwise bias can limit our understanding and inhibit needed progress - on both a micro and macro level.

^Yes. You're right, of course.

There are a lot of terms being used without definition, which makes this entire thread hard to read.

Conservative doesn't describe the current Republican party, for example, so when that term is used, what is meant by it? Christianity encompasses a very large number of different sects with very different belief structures. Which ones are being referenced? Which ones are being ignored? Jewish: does that mean religiously/culturally/politically?

I think that people need to better explain what they're talking about, to clarify what they mean.

I would agree, but then fighting over the definitions will go on for pages, it's kind of the whole playbook around here.

Ah, gotcha. I like having things all super organized.... And yeah, I got pulled along with the derailing in the other thread, and I apologized to Blitz (I thought it was considered good manners to apologize for derailing; I didn't realize I was being silly by doing so), and tried to get it back on track, and failed miserably, lol.

It's also gonna take some getting used to, to have comments disappear.
How do y'all handle that??? lol
In re-reading a few of my comments, they no longer make sense, because the original comment is gone (like my reference earlier to processing new hurt on this thread). It's taking a bit longer than I expected, to become acclimated to this place.



Agreed. On all counts.



Which is why I ultimately understand if something I've said brings on an emotional response from someone, and they lash out at me. I don't hold it against them, because I'm upset, too, and we're sharing that experience (albeit from opposite sides, like tug-of-war). I don't intend to provoke (I try to phrase things very carefully), yet I understand that the nature of this subforum can result in overwhelmingly emotional reactions.



Yeaaah, I found that out, the hard way, on Blitz's Virgin Mary thread (I had no idea I was using certain words the wrong way, until definitions were provided, and even still, I misinterpreted at times).
But then, like Dox pointed out, we'd all get lost in definitions. So.... Fun in getting lost in definitions, or fun in not knowing how others are using words?

Words lose meaning fast when they start to be used for other things.

Calling homosexuality a lifestyle implies homophobia and lack of tolorance because of its history of how they were treated. They have been beaten, killed, disowned. It used to be illegal too.

Imagine trying to reclaim the N word back to its original meaning. You can explain all you want what it actually means while everyone else will be holding their ears going " luh luh luh, I am not listening to your justficatuon of your racism" about using the word.

If we are going to use the term lifesyle in a literal sense, being straight is a lifestyle when you act on it. Having sex is a lifestyle and having children. After all, relationships are a choucwcabd so is having families. See whay I dud here? I love my straight lifestyle.