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Is this company being unreasonable and/or discriminatory?
Yes 61%  61%  [ 11 ]
No 39%  39%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 18

ToughDiamond
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28 Nov 2024, 5:18 pm

I voted yes, because I think it's unreasonable of them to insist that you take anybody along if you can't find anybody suitable (Aspies often have difficulty in finding allies), or if you simply feel you'd rather rely on your own mettle when you communicate with them. Don't know whether their insistence is down to an infantilising attitude towards Aspies, or whether it's just bureaucratic insensitivity or plain clumsiness.

It might have been wiser for you not to have directly told them you weren't going to comply with one of their demands, as that could have triggered somebody at the company into a back-covering, "more than my job's worth" reaction. In other words, it might have worked better to refuse a little more indirectly. But who knows what goes on in the heads of the people who design and run these "Aspie-friendly" initiatives? It's not unlikely that your wording would have made no difference at all.

Whether or not it's legally discriminatory, I wouldn't know, but if you're filing a human rights complaint without any loss to yourself, that seems worth a try, even if it's a long shot. Emotionally it can often feel better to at least have a go at fighting back against unfair treatment.



123autism
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28 Nov 2024, 5:54 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
I voted yes, because I think it's unreasonable of them to insist that you take anybody along if you can't find anybody suitable (Aspies often have difficulty in finding allies), or if you simply feel you'd rather rely on your own mettle when you communicate with them. Don't know whether their insistence is down to an infantilising attitude towards Aspies, or whether it's just bureaucratic insensitivity or plain clumsiness.

It might have been wiser for you not to have directly told them you weren't going to comply with one of their demands, as that could have triggered somebody at the company into a back-covering, "more than my job's worth" reaction. In other words, it might have worked better to refuse a little more indirectly. But who knows what goes on in the heads of the people who design and run these "Aspie-friendly" initiatives? It's not unlikely that your wording would have made no difference at all.

Whether or not it's legally discriminatory, I wouldn't know, but if you're filing a human rights complaint without any loss to yourself, that seems worth a try, even if it's a long shot. Emotionally it can often feel better to at least have a go at fighting back against unfair treatment.


Frankly, I wasn't that excited about the job. It's boring, tedious work. But I still applied because I have no current employment. The fact is they through their company policy have made it more difficult for someone like me
on the spectrum to work with them.

At this point all I'm really interested in is if I obtain a settlement. I don't really hold ill will towards the company, but I don't agree with how they hire.

If the human rights complaint is denied, I have one chance to appeal. In the event it is denied I may contact legal counsel.



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28 Nov 2024, 5:54 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
By this logic, autistic individuals should simply be held to the same standard as NT's, because to treat them differently is to discriminate between two types of people. If I treat Autistic Person A differently than NT Person B, then by definition, I am discriminating. Therefore, they should both be held to the same standard. Right?


Yes, the general idea when avoiding discriminatory hiring practices is to avoid treating people differently and especially when it comes to protected characteristics. The equality act of 2010 in the UK at least, requires employers to respect the equal rights of all different groups/individuals and to not discriminate against any group or individual, particularly those who have protected characteristics.

Treating autistic people differently during hiring processes, would be discrimination on the grounds of disability, since autism is legally, generally regarded as a disability.

uncommondenominator wrote:
If I'm hiring for a phone receptionist, and the ability to hear is mandatory for the position and duties, is it now discriminatory to mandate that a hearing-impaired person wear their hearing aid to work, since I wouldn't expect a non-hearing-impaired person to do the same?


Yes, that would be justifiable discrimination and justifiable discrimination is legal if the discrimination can be proved to be for good reason and necessary for the function of a business.

uncommondenominator wrote:
The whole point of that hiring process is that it is specifically to help autistic individuals. Doesn't that make it discriminatory against NTs?


Yes that would be discriminatory against NTs, but being an NT isn't a protected characteristic, since this group is not a minority/not at a disadvantage, in general, unless they have a physical disability or a mental health disability unrelated to being non-NT. In this example specifically, autistic people, a minority, are being given preferential treatment, which would be an example of positive discrimination. Positive discrimination can be unlawful in certain circumstances.

uncommondenominator wrote:
And anyways, if the whole point of an autistic-friendly workplace is that they make accommodations specifically for autistic people, then the assumption is that since you're autistic, you can't do what NTs do, and need special accommodations. And how dare they assume that you can't do what an NT does! Even though the big complaint is that autistics can't always do what NTs do.


The best way for any business to be autistic friendly is to advertise that that is what they want to be, and to take any individual case of autism on its own merits, and to accommodate each or any autistic persons needs accordingly. The wrong way to go about trying to be an autistic friendly employer, would be to employ blanket rules such as requiring a guardian to attend an interview with the autistic interviewee, which is problematic on many levels and in this case could be deemed to be unlawful if someone were to legally 'explore' this instance.

uncommondenominator wrote:
I mean, why on earth would people assume that you need additional help, when applying specifically for a job that is explicitly for people who need additional help? Crazy, right?


It is crazy, yes, to make hard rules for autistic people as a group with regard to hiring processes. As the saying goes, "when you have met one person with autism, you have met one person with autism."

uncommondenominator wrote:
Believe it or not, there are many forms of "discrimination" which are entirely legal and justified.


I am aware of this.

uncommondenominator wrote:
I get that asking some individuals to bring a support person might insult them personally, but that doesn't mean it does HARM. And yet, to plenty of other autistic people, being able to a have support individual would be a godsend, and an ideal situation. Leaving it up to the individual means that some individuals might not bring someone, when they really should have, which would leave them at a disadvantage. OTOH, asking that everyone does this, which is not an unfair broad assumption, as many autistic individuals do need support, while it may offend you, it certainly doesn't put you at a disadvantage. Just cos you don't think you need one, and even if you didn't need one, that still doesn't mean you couldn't benefit from it.


I personally don't find it okay for a business to make harmful implications about autistic people and their abilities in general. It wouldn't be acceptable to make generalized judgements about what black people or gay people are capable of in the workplace, or to judge that they need a guardian with them at an interview for a job, as an adult who is planning on turning in for work on a recurrent basis, presumably without a guardian to help them perform the job.



123autism
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28 Nov 2024, 6:32 pm

From the company website:

https://www.technologynorth.net/process-consulting

We're all about recognizing and valuing every team member as a human being

Well, that's not true in my experience.

we're the experts in working with people with ASD.

Not true.

I was actually roughed up by the Edmonton Police (who this company gets contracts from) over 3 years ago. I was trying to make a traffic complaint and was assaulted. They tried to stop me from getting the CCTV footage but they failed.
https://imgur.com/a/7LRFeCC

I hope that I get a settlement out of this complaint because it would be a form of karma. The payout would come from the company, but in a way it would also be coming from the police - who spend likely 10's of thousands in contracts with this company.

I never have been able to litigate against the police for my experience, so perhaps this human rights complaint for discrimination will be the ultimate vindication.



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28 Nov 2024, 9:42 pm

The key defining point of autism is deficiency, is it not? Not all autistics have the same deficiencies, but certain ones tend to be most prevalent. Social skills, communication, executive functioning, stress management, etc. You personally may not have some of these issues, but it's not an unfair assumption to assume that they may exist. The assumption that you cannot do these things, or that there are certain things you cannot do, may hurt your feelings, but it's still not actually doing you harm - especially if the objective is to provide more support, not less.

It would be one thing if they assumed you couldn't handle your sh!t yourself, and as a result refused to hire you based on that assumption. But in this case, while they may be assuming you may not be able to do something, they are not denying you the opportunity, but rather are providing opportunity for support. Also, reminder - they are not demanding a guardian. A friend or family member is sufficient.

Rather than try to guess the individual needs of every person that comes in the door, they give everyone the same situation, because it's far easier and helpful to start with too much support, and peel it back as needed, than to offer too little support, not supporting people enough, and scrambling to try to guess how much support they do need.

I get that it hurts your self-image, having it assumed that you may not be as capable as you think you are, but I still don't see how it causes HARM. It's not like they're assuming something that's not already associated with autism, literally a known symptom of autism. They're not going "you have autism, therefore you must be lazy" or "you have autism, therefore you must have a fat head" - those things have nothing to do with autism. They're going "you have autism, therefore you may have communication difficulties" - which is a common trait of autism.

Yes yes, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. But given that autism has certain defining traits, it's not unfair to assume those traits to be present, or more likely to be present than not.

Seems like people are bad if they expect more from you, cos you have autism and need support of some sort, and it's not fair to hold you to the same standard, but people also bad if they expect too little of you, and don't give you full credit of everything you're capable of - and are supposed to know all of your specific strengths and weaknesses, having never met you before - cos if you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person, and they're all different so how in the hell is anyone supposed to know which is which and who is who?

Or they could just plan for the most common catch-alls, and maybe some people get support they didn't need, but at least nobody misses out on support they did need.

It's ironic that this complaint is about discrimination, when the root of it seems to be essentially "I may be autistic, but I'm not THAT autistic!" as though it's harmful to be associated with or accommodated for more severe common autistic symptoms, potentially resulting in a minor inconvenience for some, but a lifeline for others, during a first meeting with a total stranger.

Even if you say "I don't need one!", well, lets just bring one along this time anyways, just in case it turns out you do. Most people are not actually very good at determining their own level of skill or aptitude in matters. "I know myself better than anyone else" is not actually a terribly accurate axiom. Plenty of big fish in small lakes think they know the world, having swam from bank to bank, knowing nothing of the oceans and seas and the depths they reach.



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29 Nov 2024, 12:30 pm

FWIW...

I read it as having an implicit "If you have a guardian, then ..." before it.

Surely it would be idiotic for any company - especially one with a record of recruiting ASD folk - to outright demand that all applicants must be accompanied by a guardian, and it's so idiotic I don't believe that's what they're saying.

I just see their concern in ensuring that those who may need representation feel Ok about having their representative present during an interview and that it's therefore important they are present - but no demand that everyone must be accompanied by a guardian.


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123autism
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29 Nov 2024, 2:30 pm

Cornflake wrote:
FWIW...

I read it as having an implicit "If you have a guardian, then ..." before it.

Surely it would be idiotic for any company - especially one with a record of recruiting ASD folk - to outright demand that all applicants must be accompanied by a guardian, and it's so idiotic I don't believe that's what they're saying.

I just see their concern in ensuring that those who may need representation feel Ok about having their representative present during an interview and that it's therefore important they are present - but no demand that everyone must be accompanied by a guardian.


Just to be perfectly clear - as I've stated many times already on this thread -

The company said:

NO THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW AN INTERVIEW TO PROCEED WHEN I SAID I WOULD NOT BRING A GUARDIAN

That is how they operate. It is idiotic.

Now as far as the human rights complaint - which I think should work heavily in my favour and possibly lead to a settlement - which is my main goal here - the only way the company could IMO defend themselves would be to lie and say
'well, we offered him an interview without a guardian'.

They would be lying though, because they told me otherwise. I didn't get a recording of the brief conversation with the company, but I don't think it should matter. I have a copy of an email I sent to them that explains my perspective and I have it in writing from them how they expect you to bring a guardian.

I think this complaint works to my advantage and perhaps it will cause the company to re-evaluate their hiring process.

Whether they do or don't I don't care. I care about a settlement at this point.



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29 Nov 2024, 2:51 pm

^
Yes I guess it's your word against theirs if they contradict you. Though most companies record conversations "for training purposes." Not much use if they delete it of course. But they might not, and as you suggest, they might just admit that they did what you say they did.

An afterthough: Is it too late to call them back and get them to clarify that they absolutely insist on you taking a guardian? Could you record that conversation? I don't know if it would be eligible as evidence or not, but if not then you could make a written transcript of it to strengthen your case, adding that it was the second time you'd tried to get them to see sense. And they might even cave in when you call.



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29 Nov 2024, 4:02 pm

Do they understand you do not have a guardian?

It would be a very reasonable policy to require you to bring your guardian if you had one.

Might they think you have a guardian and are trying to do something without their knowledge?

I recommend asking them:

"I was diagnosed as being a High-Functioning Autistic in20B#
but I was never assigned a guardian because I don't need one.
I don't have, have never had, don't need, don't want a guardian.
Do you only hire Low-Functioning Autistics?"


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Cornflake
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29 Nov 2024, 5:33 pm

123autism wrote:
The company said:

NO THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW AN INTERVIEW TO PROCEED WHEN I SAID I WOULD NOT BRING A GUARDIAN
Hmm - things might have turned out differently if you'd offered instead the less confrontational "But I don't have or need a guardian".

IANAL, but I would have thought that winning a settlement would rest heavily on the scale of measurable harms that were caused to you.

Either way, do please let us know how it goes.


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29 Nov 2024, 6:02 pm

Friendly reminder! Y'all keep focusing on the word "guardian", but the actual text says guardian, family member, friend, or other trusted person. Which is legally permissible in situations such as this.



123autism
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29 Nov 2024, 6:29 pm

Cornflake wrote:
123autism wrote:
The company said:

NO THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW AN INTERVIEW TO PROCEED WHEN I SAID I WOULD NOT BRING A GUARDIAN
Hmm - things might have turned out differently if you'd offered instead the less confrontational "But I don't have or need a guardian".

IANAL, but I would have thought that winning a settlement would rest heavily on the scale of measurable harms that were caused to you.

Either way, do please let us know how it goes.


I wasn't confrontational at all. This thread is getting silly.



123autism
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29 Nov 2024, 6:39 pm

Double Retired wrote:
Do they understand you do not have a guardian?

It would be a very reasonable policy to require you to bring your guardian if you had one.

Might they think you have a guardian and are trying to do something without their knowledge?

I recommend asking them:

"I was diagnosed as being a High-Functioning Autistic in20B#
but I was never assigned a guardian because I don't need one.
I don't have, have never had, don't need, don't want a guardian.
Do you only hire Low-Functioning Autistics?"


I want to be clear:

At this point, knowing what I do, I have little to no interest in working with them.

I was never diagnosed as 'high functioning'. I was diagnosed simply as being on the spectrum.
Where I am on the spectrum? I have no idea, I don't care really. I have a driver's license (motorcycle license too), I live on my own, I've been self employed. I once took the MENSA test and was in the 83rd percentile. I have attended university, though I dropped out. I have a classical music diploma in piano performance that is roughly the equivalent of a bachelor's music degree. I hold a number of copyrights from music and writing.

I suspect I am in the higher range of the autistic spectrum, but I have never been told according to autism testing.
I certainly have an ego, but I think it's healthy to have one.

What the guy on the phone from the company did say when I spoke with him was the company was looking for people in the mid range, maybe 50-70% range on the spectrum. Whatever that means.

If that is the case, they do not do a good job of advertising this. They advertise their company as being open to all autistics.

Their error IMO is offering a job to a specific group of people and then filtering them out on the basis of how easily they can be manipulated. That's my honest perspective.



123autism
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Today, 4:24 am

Just sharing an update:

I filed a human rights compliant on November 11.

I've followed up twice since then and they haven't opened the complaint yet.

Just today I emailed a tv news network about what has happened, so perhaps they'll do this as a story.

I also let the Edmonton Police know what I thought about this because they are partnering with the company.
I found it interesting how the police chief announced he'd be resigning on November 20.



123autism
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Today, 11:00 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
The key defining point of autism is deficiency, is it not? Not all autistics have the same deficiencies, but certain ones tend to be most prevalent. Social skills, communication, executive functioning, stress management, etc. You personally may not have some of these issues, but it's not an unfair assumption to assume that they may exist. The assumption that you cannot do these things, or that there are certain things you cannot do, may hurt your feelings, but it's still not actually doing you harm - especially if the objective is to provide more support, not less.

It would be one thing if they assumed you couldn't handle your sh!t yourself, and as a result refused to hire you based on that assumption. But in this case, while they may be assuming you may not be able to do something, they are not denying you the opportunity, but rather are providing opportunity for support. Also, reminder - they are not demanding a guardian. A friend or family member is sufficient.

Rather than try to guess the individual needs of every person that comes in the door, they give everyone the same situation, because it's far easier and helpful to start with too much support, and peel it back as needed, than to offer too little support, not supporting people enough, and scrambling to try to guess how much support they do need.

I get that it hurts your self-image, having it assumed that you may not be as capable as you think you are, but I still don't see how it causes HARM. It's not like they're assuming something that's not already associated with autism, literally a known symptom of autism. They're not going "you have autism, therefore you must be lazy" or "you have autism, therefore you must have a fat head" - those things have nothing to do with autism. They're going "you have autism, therefore you may have communication difficulties" - which is a common trait of autism.

Yes yes, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. But given that autism has certain defining traits, it's not unfair to assume those traits to be present, or more likely to be present than not.

Seems like people are bad if they expect more from you, cos you have autism and need support of some sort, and it's not fair to hold you to the same standard, but people also bad if they expect too little of you, and don't give you full credit of everything you're capable of - and are supposed to know all of your specific strengths and weaknesses, having never met you before - cos if you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person, and they're all different so how in the hell is anyone supposed to know which is which and who is who?

Or they could just plan for the most common catch-alls, and maybe some people get support they didn't need, but at least nobody misses out on support they did need.

It's ironic that this complaint is about discrimination, when the root of it seems to be essentially "I may be autistic, but I'm not THAT autistic!" as though it's harmful to be associated with or accommodated for more severe common autistic symptoms, potentially resulting in a minor inconvenience for some, but a lifeline for others, during a first meeting with a total stranger.

Even if you say "I don't need one!", well, lets just bring one along this time anyways, just in case it turns out you do. Most people are not actually very good at determining their own level of skill or aptitude in matters. "I know myself better than anyone else" is not actually a terribly accurate axiom. Plenty of big fish in small lakes think they know the world, having swam from bank to bank, knowing nothing of the oceans and seas and the depths they reach.


Autism is a condition. Often some will view it in a negative light. It seems that's the stance you've taken.

You stated they are not denying you the opportunity,

Wrong. That's exactly what happened here.

You stated Also, reminder - they are not demanding a guardian. A friend or family member is sufficient.
What the company is saying is

'We won't deal with you individually because you have autism.'

Very, very obvious discrimination.

You state that my feelings may be hurt.

I'm just calling out the BS for what it is.



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Today, 11:12 am

123autism wrote:
What the company is saying is

'We won't deal with you individually because you have autism.'

Very, very obvious discrimination.
Sorry to labor the point, but is that what was actually said to you?

It's just that, as far as I can see, this is the first time it's been mentioned in this thread and I'm trying to determine what was said as compared to your take on what was said.


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