Zelenskyy's meeting with Trump, Vance goes very badly

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It's kind of hilarious watching the Putin apologists trying to explain that Zelenskyy refuses to surrender because he's corrupt/compromised/a western plant.

MAGA and their ilk have this habit of being extremely cynical, but they reserve that cynicism for victims. Ukraine got invaded? Well maybe they deserved it! Woman got assaulted? Maybe she deserved it! People live in poverty? Maybe they deserve it!

Yet people like Putin are given the benefit of the doubt no matter what they do. MAGA types really feel like not enough people are standing up for the bullies of the world. It makes you wonder if they realize on some level that they're bullies too. Keep in mind: people who look for excuses to denigrate Ukraine are bullies at worst and enablers at best. They deserve no respect.

I'm not a Putin enabler or apologist but there's been a series of events in Ukraine leading up to the Russian invasion that make me suspicious of what was happening in Ukraine prior to the war?. Not least the horrible treatment of foreign workers and students by Ukrainian authorities trying to flee Ukraine and the rise of neo-Nazi militia in the Ukrainian forces. Of course this doesn't apply to vast majority of Ukrainian citizens (who are victims of Russian aggression) but again the stories of Ukrainian refugees in the US and here in Australia openly expressing racist views about being housed with African or middle eastern refugees makes me wonder what are they teaching kids in Ukrainian schools and is there any truth to Putin's claims of the rise of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? which was the pre-text for his incursion into Ukrainian territory.

I 100% don't agree with Putin's use of force or invasion but given Russia's sensitivity with fascism and Ukraine's role in allying with Germany back in the 1940s I keep an open mind and remain somewhat concerned what really happened. Conversely I don't dispute Putin may well be using unrest on the border as an excuse for his invasion and like Netanyahu in Israel is mostly responsible for the mass slaughter of innocent civilians.

You're now spewing pro-Russian propaganda and hatred towards Ukrainians. In any country, there are people with racist views, Australia included.
https://antar.org.au/issues/racism/raci ... s%20(23%25)%20were%20witnessed

How have you been dealing with the indigenous people there? How about Putin teaches you a lesson too?



In WW2 most of Europe had nazi puppet states and were collaborating with Germans. Does that mean that most of Europe should to be invaded by Putin?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_W ... pet_states

You not-Putin-applogists always seem to find rooms for "but" or "just" or "only" after that oh-so-sincere disclaimer. It's extremely telling.


"This country got invaded, and I, someone who definitely doesn't blame the victim, felt an intellectual duty to consider what this country may have done to deserve it!"

Think for five minutes like most of the rest of us have, and realize that the suggestion that Putin is anti-nationalist is patently absurd. He is, at best, worried only by non-Russian nationalists. Nationalism is Putin's entire spiel--sorry, in my experience, no-Putin-applogists have in recent years tried to make nationalism less of a dirty word.


OF COURSE! Of course. Remember kids, when you blame the victim, you need to make yourself seem more compassionate than you are by tacking a half-hearted disclaimer on at the end.

. . . but make SURE you undercut that disclaimer, so people don't think you believe it too much.

Gosh! I had no idea Eastern Europe had a racism problem after decades of being nearly closed off from the rest of the world by the Iron Curtain! Surely this only applies to Ukraine! There's no way nationalist Russia First Russia would EVER tolerate racism like those intolerant Ukrainians!
As long as you're tossing out dehumanizing anecdotes to help you care less about victims, consider this: I have multiple Ukrainian coworkers who get along just fine with my multiple Arab and African coworkers. But hey, dismiss that if it helps you not care about them as much.


Sounds like maybe it's closer to 50 or 40%< but maybe I'm just assuming the sentence is about to be undercut....

There it is! As surely as the sun will rise in the east!

It's incredibly basic ignorance of history like this that makes many people think you are acting in bad faith when you make these arguments.
Gee, WHY would Ukraine ever side with someone invading the USSR? Ukraine LOVED being part of the USSR! Lmao. What did Russia or the Bolsheviks EVER do that might have incited nationalism or a willingness to collaborate with invaders?
I miss the old days when centrists and conservatives acted like the Holodomor was as bad as, if not worse than, the Holocaust, because of their need to worship capitalism. Yet, when they need to rationalize not caring about a nationalist-capitalist regime, suddenly Russia and Ukraine seems to them like livelong buddies!
Some Ukrainians sided with the Nazis initially because they were hoping they were going to liberate them from the Soviets. When it became clear that Ukrainians were going to get genocided just like the rest of those untermenschliche Slavs, they fought the Nazis and the Soviets.
I'm also going to go ahead and assume you willfully ignore the fact that almost every country in Europe had collaborators willing to work with the Nazis for one reason or another, since you think Ukraine is uniquely worthy of Russian suspicion.

End on a disclaimer! Gotta seem sort of reasonable--dont want the whole thing to be an overt pro-Putin sandwich from beginning to end. Gotta maintain plausible deniability not just to others, but for yourself. Putin apologists are some of the best people at convincing themselves that they aren't Putin apologists. It's what makes them so resistant to change or self-criticism.

^ Excellent points; well said.

Cyberdora, maybe you'd like to, oh I dunno - "adjust" your content and not be quite so willing to victim-blame?

Sometimes an amoral vicious bastard of a dictator is just that.
This has nothing to do with whatever conspiratorial shenanigans Ukraine may or may not have been involved with (I suspect the latter). A sovereign state was illegally invaded without justification and civilians are being slaughtered.

I listened to this video, and found some glaring historic errors:
In regarding Russia's trauma of having been invaded from the west, it maintained Germany had attacked Russia during WWI. But this doesn't take into account how Russia had invaded German territory first at the onset of the First World War.
The video maintained with German reunification, there had been a debate whether Germany would join NATO or the Warsaw Pact. There was never any debate of which alliance a united Germany would belong to. NATO was never in danger of Germany joining the Pro-Russian alliance.
The video never takes into account how the former Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO out of fear of rising Russian nationalism and threat of expansion. NATO never pressured any of these new members into joining.
Long before Ukraine applied for NATO membership, Putin had made it clear he did not recognize Ukraine as a legitimate country but as a part of Russia that should be repatriated.
The video makes mention of how NATO had gone back on its word not to expand eastward, but makes no mention of how Russia had broken its promise not to invade Ukraine if that country gave up its nuclear weapons in return for independence - which Ukraine had done.
While showing Russian parades and displays of nationalism showcasing Stalin's image, the video made no comment how Stalin had been the epitome of Russian expansionism, totalitarianism, and genocide, a thing which makes NATO membership of Ukraine and other former Warsaw Pact states that much more understandable.

I imagine McCarthy is spinning in his grave now.

Oh well, looks like I'm getting a pasting over wondering if Russians living in Ukraine were ever in danger justifying Russian intervention? I guess we take one sides word for it and leave it at that.

Its estimated the pre-war number of foreign students was 80,000 (not counting foreign workers). Since the war that number has dropped to 50,000. I trust Ukraine are taking better care of the new batch than the last batch.

The US and EU never gave enough support to defeat Russia, only enough to prolong the war, they also don't give indefinite asylum.
This means they may as well have not given anything, as we have now seen, resulting in many unnecessary deaths.

I spoke with a Ukrainian the other day. He is of the same opinion. He sees EU "support" as mostly ineffective ass-licking BS. I have had personal experience with corruption with Ukrainian aid NGOs.

The western "demonization" narrative is also very similar to their formula for Yugoslavia and Iraq, wars for which we have a more complete truthful insight. Putin is no saint, but we need diverse ways of living. Not everything should be controlled by one hegemony.