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Participant626
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18 Apr 2025, 7:56 am

I'm American and have trouble understanding the UK. Here's what I think is going on, which is probably quite wrong.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain (UK) is one country made up of four used-to-be countries: England, Wales, Scotland, & Northern Ireland. People from the UK identify as British. Some people prefer to identify more with their used-to-be country, so there are English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish (Northern Irish?).

They are all represented in their government in London, but really England dominates. The UK is no longer in the EU, so Northern Ireland is not in the EU while Ireland is, causing the Emerald Isle to be extra administratively divided. People in Ireland are upset with people in Northern Ireland for staying with England & UK.

Questions
1. Where am I wrong?
2. What's the term for use-to-be countries?
3. In general, how to people choose to identify as British or by their used-to-be countries?
4. When someone says Ireland, is it understood that they are referring to Ireland proper or both Ireland proper and Northern Ireland?
5. Do people from Northern Ireland identify as Irish, Northern Irish, British, or something else?
6. What term do Ireland people use to identify people from North Ireland?
7. Do the used-to-be countries have their own governments?


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DuckHairback
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18 Apr 2025, 2:17 pm

Participant626 wrote:
Questions
1. Where am I wrong?
2. What's the term for use-to-be countries?
3. In general, how to people choose to identify as British or by their used-to-be countries?
4. When someone says Ireland, is it understood that they are referring to Ireland proper or both Ireland proper and Northern Ireland?
5. Do people from Northern Ireland identify as Irish, Northern Irish, British, or something else?
6. What term do Ireland people use to identify people from North Ireland?
7. Do the used-to-be countries have their own governments?


1. Nowhere, really.

2. They're countries. I know, I know it's confusing. Technically they are all constituent countries of the UK, which is itself a country.

3. It's up to them. Many people from the smaller constituent countries take a lot of pride in the specific cultures of their own corner of the UK, so they prefer to identify as Welsh or Scottish or Northern Irish to avoid being lumped in with the English.

4. I would say if someone announces they are Irish they're talking about the Republic of Ireland, not Northern Ireland, but some in NI may consider themselves Irish.

5. Again it depends. There are many in Northern Ireland who would prefer to see that part of the country be returned to the Republic of Ireland. It's a whole horrible mess.

6. I don't know.

7. Yes, sort of. They were granted Parliaments in 1999 and they have some devolved powers. For example Scotland still allows students to attend university for free. Not the case any more in England. But they don't have complete autonomy, ultimate power rests in the British Parliament in London.


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Rossall
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18 Apr 2025, 2:23 pm

I think we urgently need a referendum in both north and south Ireland on a united Ireland. Personally I think a united Ireland makes more sense.


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DuckHairback
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Yesterday, 9:20 am

^I share your desire for the situation in NI to be permanently resolved.

However I've lost faith in the concept of referendums (referenda?) to resolve this sort of problem. I suspect you'd end up with a close split and then whatever you do will piss off half of the people the result affects.

I don't know what the answer is though.


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envirozentinel
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Yesterday, 9:26 am

To the OP: The best word to describe 'used to be" countries is former countries, which also applies to countries such as Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia.


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Yesterday, 9:50 am

The best way to think of the UK is like a miniature USA. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are individual states but together they form the UK. Each "state" is similar to a US state, in that they can pass their own legislation (state law) to a limited extent but all have to follow the UK parliament law (Federal). Wales and England are virtually identical while Northern Ireland and Scotland seem to have more say in their state laws.

It gets annoying where I live as the Welsh government is constantly clashing with the English one for petty reasons.

Ireland itself is an entirely separate country but we sort of get along well enough to confuse people around the world into thinking they're also part of the UK.

Some people see themselves as Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or English but never British which causes division here seeing they often affiliate with their "state" country at the expense of disliking the rest of the UK.

People visiting the UK from other countries might possibly struggle to even know when they enter one British country into another. The accents change and road signage usually has a different language written on it sometimes but it can be subtle.



gwynfryn
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Yesterday, 10:41 am

Participant626 wrote:

Questions
1. Where am I wrong?
2. What's the term for use-to-be countries?
3. In general, how to people choose to identify as British or by their used-to-be countries?
4. When someone says Ireland, is it understood that they are referring to Ireland proper or both Ireland proper and Northern Ireland?
5. Do people from Northern Ireland identify as Irish, Northern Irish, British, or something else?
6. What term do Ireland people use to identify people from North Ireland?
7. Do the used-to-be countries have their own governments?


A little potted history may help:

The Union of England and Scotland came about to save the latter from bankruptcy. Wales, as a country, is really an invention of the conquering English. Before that, they were too busy fighting each other to be properly united, except for rare moment when facing an overwhelming outside threat; they weren't given any choice about joining the Union. The first bit also applies pretty much to Ireland. The protestant majority in Ulster probably joined willingly, for fear of otherwise being the downtrodden minority in a united Ireland, who would no doubt be made to suffer as have the catholic minority there [as a child I heard lots about the atrocities of the IRA, but never a word about how the Catholics where treated as second class citizens. I can't explain why they do this].

Then there is the question of the economy: for most of my life, Eire as it was often referred to back then, was a basket case, with most people having a lower standard of living than anyone in the north, but then came the Celtic Tiger which reversed the situation, so a referendum on the possibility of a (re?) united Ireland is no longer a forgone conclusion.

A further obstacle in Wales is that it, in effect, has two different economies; the southern motorway belt which is also the home of the new parliament (which is working better than I'd anticipated) and BBC Wales (which isn't, having been completely taken over by Southern Welsh who talk funny, and way to fast for us northerners to follow). Most of their trade is with English towns like Bristol and Gloucester. The northern mway belt, home of the old capital of Caernarfon (now mostly used for crowning English princes) and Llangollen (of which the Eisteddfod is internationally renowned, but its a dump for the rest of the year) are more connected with the like of Liverpool and Manchester.

In between is underpopulated farmland, very pretty, and great motorcycling country, but a nonentity economically. When asked why there is no motorway, between north and south, the response is that the traffic doesn't justify it, perhaps because most people doing the drive from Caernarfon to Swansea opt for heading east past Chester, turning right to take the north/south motorway inside the English border, and then turning right again at Bath. Want to do it by train? The fastest route is via London!

Where do I stand? I've no regrets about have grown up there and learning a second language ( a good idea for all kids as it expands one's thinking) but, appart from some summer labouring jobs (which got me through college) I've never been able to find employment there, spending the next 17 years in England, where the beer is better, and which made possible the easy retirement I currently enjoy. Perhaps because of that I tend to identify as British, but having experienced long periods in Belgium, some in Germany the United States (yeah!) and Portugal, and over 20 years here in France, I've no desire to go back to the UK. Had there been any doubt, the Brexit fiasco removed it.



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Yesterday, 1:04 pm

Make sure to learn the metric system, spell color and flavor with a "u" and to use the dates in they order people do in the UK or they'll think you're a stereotype who doesn't know anything about their culture.

I don't live in the UK, but I live in Canada where 99% of our culture is making fun of Americans, and we also use the metric system and spell certain words like they do in the UK.

I once read somewhere that Canadians spend so much time telling Americans we're not British and British people we're not American we don't spend enough time being Canadian. :?