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babybuggy32
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17 Oct 2011, 11:37 pm

many apologies i dod not realize my words were repetitious and already stated by another hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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diniesaur
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18 Oct 2011, 7:27 am

SilverShoelaces wrote:
Have you considered asking people to refer to you as "he" instead of "she"? If you tell them you identify as male despite your feminine appearance (at least I say that with the assumption that your appearance is somewhat feminine), then if they want to show respect for you they will probably comply. I have a classmate who identifies as male but is physically female and not transsexual, and my classmates and I refer to him as "he" even though he is very obviously female.

And if you are uncomfortable with being called "he", you could just reject pronouns altogether and ask that people just refer to you by name.


The problem with "he" is that my mom doesn't want me to "pursue" anything transgender since she thinks I'm influenced by my ex. If I do, she says I can't live with her. Also, my dad doesn't feel comfortable with it.
Maybe I could reject all the pronouns, though.



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18 Oct 2011, 8:02 am

If your parents aren't comfortable with "he" I really doubt they would be ok with "it." I would suggest not bothering with trying to change what pronouns your parents use, at least right now while your mom is threatening to keep you away from your brother. I personally use "they" to refer to gender-ambiguous people if they don't specify what pronouns they would prefer. I remember reading somewhere that using "they" to refer to gender-neutral people used to be common practice. I don't remember where I read that unfortunately, but that book/article/whatever also said that it used to be more important for pronouns to agree with gender than number. I agree with the others that you're probably going to have a hard time convincing people to use "it" because that is reserved for inanimate objects. I know people who will get offended if you refer to their animals as "it." As a human, you are more valuable than an inanimate object and people could see it as degrading to refer to you as one. So, my suggestion: use "they" or reject pronouns entirely.



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18 Oct 2011, 11:15 am

"It," is very much a dehumanising reference.

Bear in mind, communication is a two way street--just as much as you want to feel comfortable with how others speak to you, so too, they want to be comfortable with how they speak to you. I suspect that the vast number of people who would want to be respectful of you self-identity would feel uncomfortable at the feelings of disrespect that they would encounter by referring to you in a fashion that they perceive to be dehumanising.

I suggest you encourage your friends to avoid pronouns altogether. Instead of, "it's hers," use, "it's diniesaur's." Instead of "she is really good at this," use, "diniesaur is really good at this." There is almost no sentence involving the use of pronouns with gender that cannot be replaced with your name.


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18 Oct 2011, 1:16 pm

visagrunt wrote:
"It," is very much a dehumanising reference.


I'm really glad that other people think this too. The idea of calling someone an "It" has the implication of removing a person's sense of humanity.

Consider this: adults used to refer to babies and other young children as well as "It" but this usage is nowadays antiquated and is considered impersonal and insulting and many will react with anger and hostility at someone using this pronoun after already being informed of someone's gender.

It's worth noting, also, that various totalitarian regimes have used the pronoun "It" as a rhetorical device in order to dehumanise their enemies, implying that they were little more than animals.



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18 Oct 2011, 1:46 pm

Hi diniesaur, I sense that you are young and have a lot of doubts, both about your own self-identity and also about how society refers to you.

Lucky for you society is starting to realize that the old concept of "two completely separate and unchangeable genders" is false. (We still have a long way to come of course... baby steps!)

I suggest you find a local LGBT organization that can help you feel Pride in who you are. You are young and you don't have all the answers yet. It is OK to question your gender/sexuality (for many people this is a lifelong process) but I don't recommend anything drastic at this stage in your life. If you are looking for inspiration then read about the many transgender, intersex, or "third sex" people in history and their wonderful contributions to society.

When people call you "she" they are not trying to insult or demean you. This is important to understand. They are simply following the social conventions that they were taught. They are speaking on auto-pilot with no ill intentions. You can try to fight this, but may I humbly suggest you redirect that energy into something positive that makes you feel good about yourself. :)



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18 Oct 2011, 6:10 pm

What's the big deal about being human--why is it bad to be "dehumanized"? I don't understand.

Thanks, mushroo. I do regularly visit my LGBT Outreach center on campus, but I don't talk to them much about my resistance to being labled Female. I just wish that people wouldn't base the way they treat me or view me on these hideous protrusions on my chest, and when people say "she" it's a strong reminder of that. I guess I could leave it alone for now, though, as long as I could do something else to make it clear to people that those ideas they have about Females don't apply to me. I'm not sure if I'm male or not, but I want to be able to make progress about it somehow. I don't want to be stuck like this forever.

Someone suggested to me that I talk to my psychiatrist about getting perscribed hormones so that I "feel the way" I'm "supposed to." In other words, this person thought I should try to make it so I feel female. This horrifies me! I feel like I would be tearing out a piece of my soul if I did that. I wouldn't be me! I don't want my psychiatrist to do that. I feel the same way about that as I do about someone "curing" my Asperger's Syndrome: I would rather die.

I am confused and frustrated, but mushroo, I understand completely your concerns of me trying to do anything drastic; the person I was dating claimed to be transgender, but he probably was just male and had a fetish for being female. He ended up trying to kill me. I don't want to be like that.



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18 Oct 2011, 10:12 pm

diniesaur wrote:
What's the big deal about being human--why is it bad to be "dehumanized"? I don't understand.


Because it has very heavy connotations of seeing something as 'inferior' and, therefore, easier to mistreat, abuse, even murder. It's more difficult to do that if you see the person you're doing it to as a fully-fledged, intelligent human being with their own thoughts and feelings that need to be taken into account.

As I said earlier, take a look at the demonisation policies of various totalitarian regimes. If people see other people as "less than human", it makes it a lot easier for people to consider harming them. They cease to have a recognisable voice to their aggressors and they become 'the enemy'.



mushroo
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19 Oct 2011, 8:46 am

diniesaur wrote:
What's the big deal about being human--why is it bad to be "dehumanized"? I don't understand.


Most NT's are very attached to the concept of "humanity," for reasons I don't totally understand either (personally I'd be just as happy as a monkey or kitty cat).

For example look at how upset some people get about teaching evolution in schools, they don't want their children to hear that humans are descended from apes.



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19 Oct 2011, 9:23 am

mushroo wrote:
diniesaur wrote:
What's the big deal about being human--why is it bad to be "dehumanized"? I don't understand.


Most NT's are very attached to the concept of "humanity," for reasons I don't totally understand either (personally I'd be just as happy as a monkey or kitty cat).

For example look at how upset some people get about teaching evolution in schools, they don't want their children to hear that humans are descended from apes.


Seems like those people are very stuck-up if they feel insulted to be decended from the apes. I'm majoring in biology, and every time I learn about living creatures, I feel honored to be a part of them.

Then again, Tequila, it does make sense that most NTs don't like things that aren't human since they murder bugs all the time and think I'm wasting my time when I try to stop them.



mori_pastel
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21 Oct 2011, 4:09 am

diniesaur wrote:
Really? To me, "it" is the pronoun used for anything whose gender is not known. For example, people often refer to bugs as "it" because they don't know their genders. Also, bacteria generally have no gender, so people refer to them as "it." My gender is not known. Why can't I be referred to as "it" like bugs and bacteria?


Actually, when you're referring to a human whose gender is not known, don't you default to the plural "they"? For instance, "You see, I've got this friend and they have this problem, blah, blah, blah..." Like in those conversations where people are really talking about themselves when asking for advice from someone, but they don't want to admit they're really talking about themselves, so they say it's a friend they're asking for? Even though they're referring to a singular friend, because our language doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun you default to the gender neutral plural.

I imagine people would react better to using "they" than they would "it". However, I think that regardless of your word choice people will have a hard time using a gender-neutral pronoun when referring to you. It's simply not how our language is built. It wouldn't come naturally to people, so unless they were dedicated to the pronoun change just to please you, they probably wouldn't permanently refer to you by any gender neutral term.

When I was in middle school, my friends called me "it" for several weeks... "Don't talk to it." "Stay away from it." I don't really remember why, but I would like to reiterate how it's commonly used to insult and dehumanize others. Oh, and dehumanization is an insult because it implies that you are somehow less than others. It has nothing to do with a distaste for non-human organisms. It's simply a recognition of man's superiority over his environment. To dehumanize someone is to deny them equality. It may not seem like it from your perspective, but I think that people refusing to call you "it" is a greater compliment than it is an insult.



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23 Oct 2011, 10:42 pm

Most people I know who prefer not to use gendered pronouns use "they."



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24 Oct 2011, 11:34 am

invisiblespectrum wrote:
Most people I know who prefer not to use gendered pronouns use "they."


The problem with the inclusive plural is that it is unambiguously plural. When referring to an indeterminate person, you can get away with it--"A person walking down the street must hold onto their bag." But when referring to a definite individual, "Pat had to hold onto their bag when they were wallking down the street," is clearly wrong.


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invisiblespectrum
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24 Oct 2011, 12:00 pm

"They" is an imperfect solution, but I can't think of anything better. It's definitely better than "it."



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24 Oct 2011, 6:03 pm

I guess I can see why they would think it's insulting, but if I tell them "it" doesn't insult me, why do they still think it's insulting? Doesn't that cancel it out? NTs are confusing. :scratch:



mori_pastel
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24 Oct 2011, 6:20 pm

diniesaur wrote:
I guess I can see why they would think it's insulting, but if I tell them "it" doesn't insult me, why do they still think it's insulting? Doesn't that cancel it out? NTs are confusing. :scratch:


Let's change the situation to give you a better perspective. Say an immigrant who recently moved to the country showed up in your class or at your work or something. They asked you to call them "Asshat" because it sounded very similar to their birth name. They know the English connotation, but it doesn't bother them because it's as similar to their birth name as Americans/(people from whatever country you're from) can pronounce. Would you feel comfortable calling them "Asshat"? Sure, it doesn't hurt the kid, but that doesn't change the fact that you're calling them Asshat. It doesn't change the words coming out of YOUR mouth. It doesn't change YOUR intent or the way YOU think.

Same basic principle. Referring to human beings as "it" is generally considered negative. In this instance, it really doesn't matter what you think. You can think of yourself as an it and be OK with it, but you can't make other people OK with thinking of you as an it.

It's not really an NT thing. It's a human being thing.