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Dillogic
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20 Jan 2015, 12:17 am

Doesn't seem to be that way.

Rather, a biological mix up in the brain that makes someone attracted to the wrong sex for their body.



Skibz888
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20 Jan 2015, 12:34 am

Humanaut wrote:
Being able to choose between different attractive features of both sexes implies bisexuality. That was my point.


This may just be semantics or I'm simply not getting what you're saying, but to me, saying one "chooses" between features of both sexes still implies a choice, as opposed to being inherently attracted to both sexes. It's not like bi/pansexuals are like "today, I will choose females!".



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20 Jan 2015, 12:34 am

Dillogic wrote:
Doesn't seem to be that way.

Rather, a biological mix up in the brain that makes someone attracted to the wrong sex for their body.


Why is it a mixup? And even if it were proven to be, that doesn't mean that gay individuals aren't entitled to the same civil rights as other Americans, or that they should be regarded as freaks or something. After all, the same thing could be maintained about us Aspies.


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Dillogic
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20 Jan 2015, 12:39 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Why is it a mixup? And even if it were proven to be, that doesn't mean that gay individuals aren't entitled to the same civil rights as other Americans, or that they should be regarded as freaks or something. After all, the same thing could be maintained about us Aspies.


Probably because we evolved to reproduce. Fairly simple there. Kinda like how we evolved to interact socially (but some of us have a mix up there too).

When did I say anything about civil rights?



Skibz888
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20 Jan 2015, 12:47 am

Dillogic wrote:
Probably because we evolved to reproduce. Fairly simple there.


What's your point? We have enough population problems as it is; if literally everyone on the planet was reproducing, there would be some catastrophic implications and quick. Just because perpetuation of our species relies on reproduction (organic or artificial) doesn't mean that it's an innately natural behavior that literally everyone must follow.



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20 Jan 2015, 12:53 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
Doesn't seem to be that way.

Rather, a biological mix up in the brain that makes someone attracted to the wrong sex for their body.


Why is it a mixup? And even if it were proven to be, that doesn't mean that gay individuals aren't entitled to the same civil rights as other Americans, or that they should be regarded as freaks or something. After all, the same thing could be maintained about us Aspies.


You didn't bring up civil rights, I did. Just making a point.


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Dillogic
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20 Jan 2015, 12:55 am

Skibz888 wrote:
What's your point? We have enough population problems as it is; if literally everyone on the planet was reproducing, there would be some catastrophic implications and quick. Just because perpetuation of our species relies on reproduction (organic or artificial) doesn't mean that it's an innately natural behavior that literally everyone must follow.


What's happening now is immaterial in this respect, as evolution doesn't adapt to a century of technological advancement. For homosexuality to be seen as a desirable trait for the species, we'd need millions of years of overpopulation for it to start up.

It's natural insofar as the majority of the human species is concerned.

My point is that it's a mix up in the brain, like any other deviant behavior/disorder, which can't be chosen.



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20 Jan 2015, 1:25 am

As best as I can work it out, it can be both or either.

The nature vs nurture thing still hasn't been decided conclusively, but there are arguments that some are born gay or straight or bi, while others go one way or another due to psychological events in the formative years. Genetically, all they can say is that certain genes increase the likelihood of an attribute.

Whatever the reason, sexual orientation should have no bearing on how we regard someone... unless you're attracted to them of course. :P


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20 Jan 2015, 2:01 am

Quote:
Probably because we evolved to reproduce.


And if we all did that, we'd have run out of resources long ago.

We evolved as social creatures. Working together- physically and socially is how we managed to survive without teeth or claws or a tough outer shell or ability to produce poison. We hunted together. We gathered together. We watched other couples' kids, not just our own. We shared knowledge and resources. We buried our dead together. We lived in groups. There is nothing in our development as a species that would eliminate homosexuality, and a lot that would support our having an extra set of hands.



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20 Jan 2015, 2:18 am

BetwixtBetween wrote:
And if we all did that, we'd have run out of resources long ago.


Not at all.

It's only been the past 200 or so years that we've advanced technologically to a point where the population has started to grow due to our ability to gather resources so efficiently, in addition to medical knowledge keeping people alive.

Of course, that's not the only thing we evolved for, but reproduction is one of the most important aspects of species survival. Without that, we don't have a species.



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20 Jan 2015, 2:27 am

Skibz888 wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Being able to choose between different attractive features of both sexes implies bisexuality. That was my point.
This may just be semantics or I'm simply not getting what you're saying, but to me, saying one "chooses" between features of both sexes still implies a choice, as opposed to being inherently attracted to both sexes. It's not like bi/pansexuals are like "today, I will choose females!".

I'm not saying that you can choose your sexual orientation as such. I'm simply saying that only a bisexual person is capable of choosing between the sexes.



Last edited by Humanaut on 20 Jan 2015, 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dillogic
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20 Jan 2015, 2:27 am

BetwixtBetween wrote:
We evolved as social creatures. Working together- physically and socially is how we managed to survive without teeth or claws or a tough outer shell or ability to produce poison. We hunted together. We gathered together. We watched other couples' kids, not just our own. We shared knowledge and resources. We buried our dead together. We lived in groups. There is nothing in our development as a species that would eliminate homosexuality, and a lot that would support our having an extra set of hands.


We developed social ability to aid in survival, yes, which reproduction is a part of (albeit some of us don't have this social ability :P).

Yes, humans watch other kids, but the majority have their own too.

None of this takes away from the fact that homosexuality is entirely superfluous for a species that's to survive, and is a rather silly concept for specific evolution: a person that reproduces, and also can look after other kids, is far more useful than one that doesn't reproduce but can also look after others. You'd have to take the former is species survival is important -- you'd want all of your population to be like this.

Homosexuality is just as much a disorder as someone with an ASD insofar as survival is concerned -- both aren't going to reproduce in most cases. It's just that reproduction isn't as important today.



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20 Jan 2015, 2:29 am

Dillogic wrote:
BetwixtBetween wrote:
We evolved as social creatures. Working together- physically and socially is how we managed to survive without teeth or claws or a tough outer shell or ability to produce poison. We hunted together. We gathered together. We watched other couples' kids, not just our own. We shared knowledge and resources. We buried our dead together. We lived in groups. There is nothing in our development as a species that would eliminate homosexuality, and a lot that would support our having an extra set of hands.


We developed social ability to aid in survival, yes, which reproduction is a part of (albeit some of us don't have this social ability :P).

Yes, humans watch other kids, but the majority have their own too.

None of this takes away from the fact that homosexuality is entirely superfluous for a species that's to survive, and is a rather silly concept for specific evolution: a person that reproduces, and also can look after other kids, is far more useful than one that doesn't reproduce but can also look after others. You'd have to take the former is species survival is important -- you'd want all of your population to be like this.

Homosexuality is just as much a disorder as someone with an ASD insofar as survival is concerned -- both aren't going to reproduce in most cases. It's just that reproduction isn't as important today.


Speak for yourself, I have reproduced successfully.


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20 Jan 2015, 2:34 am

I grew up hearing same sex fantasies are quite common in adolescence but people are so afraid of what it means and it can even make some people act out due to the stress. There's a tidal wave of advocates saying if you have them you are gay but I don't buy that because nearly everyone has them and we would mostly all be gay.

You have to be more serious and willing to live those fantasies out to really be considered gay and you have to identify yourself as such.



Dillogic
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20 Jan 2015, 2:50 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Speak for yourself, I have reproduced successfully.


Almost none with an ASD reproduce (almost none marry too); there's plenty of studies out there showing this. If I were speaking for myself, I'd say it's unlikely that you have a diagnosed ASD if you have children (and if you do, you're probably borderline and must have more severe problems elsewhere, such as the repetitive behaviors section). Whilst I haven't read a study, I'd bet almost no homosexuals reproduce.

Which makes sense, as an ASD is in part a social disorder, and both of those things are the penultimate social goals; children and marriage.



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20 Jan 2015, 2:55 am

Dillogic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Speak for yourself, I have reproduced successfully.


Almost none with an ASD reproduce (almost none marry too); there's plenty of studies out there showing this. If I were speaking for myself, I'd say it's unlikely that you have a diagnosed ASD if you have children (and if you do, you're probably borderline and must have more severe problems elsewhere, such as the repetitive behaviors section). Whilst I haven't read a study, I'd bet almost no homosexuals reproduce.

Which makes sense, as an ASD is in part a social disorder, and both of those things are the penultimate social goals; children and marriage.

With the legalization of same sex marriage in the US, more of them will reproduce and in the states where it is already legal, it is not uncommon for them to start families of their own.