Do you think Curses enhance spirituality

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You said yourself "meditation" and this is a harmful part.

Now according to my theory about Curses the way they work is that all that spiritual atmosphere with candles and a deep poetic voice slowly reading the Curses will force the subject to MEDITATE and that meditation would kill their soul since meditation is so horrible for you.

Meditation harmful!?! Meditation is just when a persons body is conciously relaxed and the mind is calm. How could that be harmful?

Here is a book about CHRISTIAN MEDITATION:

Link

Here is a book about JEWISH MEDITATION:

Link

Would you look at that! Jews and Christians meditate. Go figure! Did you also know that there is a great deal of scientific evidence that shows meditation is beneficial to a person's health? It lowers the biochemical byproducts of stress, decreases heart rate and blood pressure, and produces favourable brain waves. My father had a serious heart attack years ago, and afterwards his doctor suggested he learn how meditate. Not only is it harmless, it is beneficial!

Okay I did read about Christian meditation and it focused on understanding Christian concepts, such as word made flesh, etc. Those are good things. But whatever isn't focused on Christ is bad. I think the parable about the shepherd in John chapter 10 makes this point -- Jesus is the door, good shepherd enters by teh door while bad shepherd finds some other way. So Christian meditation is good shepherd because it goes by the door. Buddhist meditation is bad shepherd because it finds some other way.

I must say, Roman, I am baffled by the logic of your point. I don't even get your point.

Hypothesis:
If a curse has a life of its own other than that through the curser and the cursee, via a xtian perspective, it has NO positive qualities. Curses have always been petty for the most part because revenge is not a divine quality.

Hence, the hemlock is a strange metaphor. Every creature that is vulnerable to its poison will die. Vitamins mean nothing if they are not used. I doubt any positive-natured god would have his ear to the ground listening and granting curses. If he does, he's not good-natured.

Meditation is meditation is meditation. Xtian meditation is the same as Buddhist meditation is the same as Judaic meditation. I find nothing in the above reference to meditation at all. It seems you are stretching the Bible for your own designs.

But lemme get this straight: a xtian curse is okay because it goes through Jesus and a pagan curse is not because it doesn't go through Jesus?? Or they are both bad, however I should prefer a xtian curse to a pagan curse because I'm praying to the right god?

Are you even aware how much paganism is intertwined with xtianity??? Do you use prayer and meditation as synonyms? Because, by definition they are not the same.

Any curse requesting for a negative outcome is petty. No all-perfect, all-loving, and all-knowing god would grant one. Ever. Otherwise, He/She is a contradiction of His/Her very definition.

I suggest you go do some research on the history of your religion (and I'm not just talking about going to the religiously geared sites to get solely the points of view which agree with your own). And also research the other belief systems you mentioned in haste, like Buddhism and other pagan religions. Doing so can only help you carve your hypothese more carefully and bring them across more smoothely.

[/rant]

I agree there is no need for God to listen to man's Curses. Actually that was EXACTLY what I was thinking. I was like wondering... why would Curses work if God isn't obligated to listen to them? And then I realize may be Curses force the Cursed one to sin and God punishes Cursed one for sinning. Like for instance IF during Jewish excommunication they would force a person to eat pork, it would MAKE SENSE why the Curse would work. But they don't force to eat pork! So what other ways can a Curse work? Well the answer is that they force a person to MEDITATE, and MEDITATION is sinful. So God doesn't listen to Curses themselves, but rather he punishes the Cursed One for attending the excommunication ceremony and thus participating in the paganism.

This means that Curses don't have life on their own either. They are basically forcing a person to sin. BUT this theory requires a concept that meditation is sinful. And this brings me back to sinfulness of Buddhism. Buddhism is like a SPIRITUAL pork that Christians/Jews force into spiritual mouths (minds) of people they excommunicate via Curses that basically include the Buddhism in the spiritual way they are pronounced.

Now, I remember a friend of my mothers who would joke during pass over by making himself a sandwich with matzot and ham. He would say that he pleases God by eating matzot and he hurts God by eating ham so on average it doesn't matter.

So what I say about Curses is the same thing. The fact that they sound so spiritual perhaps has some good side to it too. Yes it draws a person into paganism. But AT THE SAME TIME it makes the person feel really calm and perhaps this calmness can also be used as an inspiration for GOOD spirituality as well. And this is what makes it ironic. Who knows... perhaps some of the Curses that Spinoza was listening to actually inspired him for some of his work even though they were meant to destroy his soul.

This whole thing would go right out the window if you say that it is God who listens to Curses. Thats why I am proposing a DIFFERENT theory. That Curses are dirrected to Cursee, NOT to God. Cursee is supposed to be drawn into paganism by listening to Curses since they force the Cursee to meditate. But AT THE SAME TIME this spiritual poison has good parts to it because there are good side to meditation. Hence the title of this post "do curses ENHANCE spirituality"



This is simply not true -- Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life; no one can come to the father but through me"




No. What I was saying is taht when Christian putts a Curse, he deliberately makes it NOT go through Jesus. Christian would try to FORCE the Cursee to be Buddhist and hence the Cursee would lose salvation since no Buddhist can ever be saved.

The reason I want to talk about Christian Curses as opposed to pagan Curses is that in case of paganism there is nothing "interesting" about the fact that they are pagan this time because they are always pagan. So if I want to say how the point of Curses is to draw a person into paganism, I better make sure that the Curser believes that the paganism is bad, and the only Cursers that believe that paganism is bad are Christians and Jews.

And by the way, in Judaism during "normal" prayer it is forbidden to put the candles off; you have to wait till they go off themselves. However, in case of Jewish excommunication they DO put candles off (to symbolize person's spiritual death) so it is like they DELIBERATELY break rules of Judaism in order to make the excommunicated person guilty of breaking them and hence invite God's wrath upon him. So likewise in Christianity they can DELIBERATELY break Christian rules by worshipping something OTHER than Jesus and hence make excummunicated person guilty of it. It would be fun if some cross burning were involved in Christian excommunication.

The other part of it is that Christian Curses are WORSE than pagan ones since Christians know what they are doing. Pagans can't tell between good or bad anyway so pagan Curses might not be much worse than any other pagan prayer anyway. But a Christian would DELIBERATELY make his Curses REALLY pagan... so pagan that this one MEDITATION that the Cursee would undergo would be deep enough a meditation to REALLY deceive the cursee.

But then ironically this meditation would also may be deepen cursee's relationship w/ god as a side effect. And thats one of the points of the post.

SO IN SHORT YOU ARE RIGHT. GOD WON'T LISTEN TO CURSES WHY WOULD HE LISTEN TO MENS OPINION IF HE SEES INTO THE HEART HIMSELF? THATS WHY I HAVE TO SAY THAT IF IT ISN'T GOD LISTENING TO CURSES, THEN THEY HAVE TO WORK SOME OTHER WAY. AND THE WAY THEY WORK IS BY FORCING THE CURSEE TO MEDITATE. SO THIS MEDITATION WOULD MAKE A CURSEE INTO PAGAN. AND GOD *WOULD* PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT A GIVEN PERSON BECAME PAGAN.

P.S. As far as your statement that vitamins won't be used, it isn't exactly correct. When Socrates ate that plant it took A WHILE for him to die. So during that while he was feeling worse and worse... but vitamins helped him out they gave him more energy. So on the one hand he kept getting worse and worse due to poison but on the other hand the energy he got from vitamins made it somewhat easier for him.

You can even imagine the following scenario: he ate the first half of that plant, and felt really sick. But then to make his life easier he needed some vitamins. The only source of vitamins available was that plant. So he ate the second half of it hoping that those vitamins would make his pain from the first half somewhat easier. Yes the second half is equally poisonous... but he felt so desperate that he was basically grasping at the vitamin straws.

Likewise, with Curses. Perhaps yes, they draw a person into Buddhism, yes he becomes pagan and thus loses his christianity. But, at the same time, his increased spirituality due to those very Curses helps him fight his pagan inclination.

Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God or the Messiah, so if you don't want to be contradictory you should be arguing that Judaism is a false religion and evil too.

If the INDIVIDUALS who practicing Judaism on the majority reject Jesus (and yes there is Jewish minority who believe in him) it doesn't make Judaism itself anti-christian. After all Judaism, as a religion, came from forefathers way before the Jews actually killed Jesus Christ, so whatever was insipred came from God. So there is nothing wrong with Jewish *prayer* (even if the individuals that pronounce the prayer happened to be completely off track). But there IS something wrong with the Curses since they are deliberately made pagan.

I would post a witty response to this thread, but I'm too busy being an evil Pagan. Back to my degenerate meditation... aah thats better

pah. it's no fun if all you do is meditate about it...

Roman, I am still very confused about your definition of meditation.

Also, Buddhists are not Pagans. Call them both Heathens if you wish a more accurate term. But Buddhism and Paganism are quite different I assure you.

Pa-gan (pa'gen) n. 1. A person who is not a Christian, Moslem, or Jew; heathen.

I assume he was referring to paganism not as the religion, but as a heathen.

As well as referring to practitioners of earth religion etc, pagan is also a term for unbelievers or heathens, etc.

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Paganism

Meditation is immersing oneself into spiritual realm. Something that seems like deep spirituality and seemingly makes you a good person.

The reason I am thinking in this dirrection is that sometimes it seems like God tempts us by making satan so meaningful in Buddhismn and other religions; on the other hand this whole Christianity staff is so shallow with buying your ticket out of hell. Yet the shallow way is the way of God (straight and narrow) while wide and broad way, with all the spirituality on its side is a way to hell, which is why most ppl get it wrong by Matt 7:13. If feelings didn't deceive us, then most ppl would of gotten it right but they don't.

So perhaps ppl when they read out Curses they take advantage of it by making them sound so spiritual with candles and staff. Probably far more spiritual than some loud hymns that sound more like some march or whatever. Yet this spirituality is deadly.



There are two meanings of the word pagan

1)pagan=many gods
2)pagan=heathen

You are using meaning 1, I am using meaning 2. Both are used.

Hey, I FINALLY found something I was looking for --- CHRISTIANS putting curses:

http://www.lforums.org/cgi-bin/ultimate ... 4;t=000435