What can I do to get readers to accept this in a story?

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Sandpiper
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18 Nov 2019, 1:08 am

I think your problem is a combination of "comic book-ish" and "rapists". Whatever you do you probably aren't going to get many readers to accept those two things going together.


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18 Nov 2019, 1:51 am

I had written a short story called Always In The Crowd where a sick, evil budding serial killer had horribly murdered a young female college student by skinning off her face, then masturbated as he watched her die. I did this so that the reader would absolutely hate and despise this character and would want to see him get what he's got coming to him. I say use rape, make it as sickening and nonsexual for the reader as possible, and then make the dirty pieces of excrement pay.


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18 Nov 2019, 9:51 am

Sandpiper wrote:
I think your problem is a combination of "comic book-ish" and "rapists". Whatever you do you probably aren't going to get many readers to accept those two things going together.


Good point.

While I wouldn't recommend using rape as a big theme in a script, especially by an amateur author, I also think that leaving the whole thing out of all fiction would also be a very bad idea. The real problem doesn't go away by pretending it doesn't exist. Having it in fiction, out in the open, reminds that it really is a real world thing that happens, not to mention having the victims surviving it in those fictional stories will also help actual victims understand that they aren't faulty, it wasn't their fault etc. Many learn about these things in school and at home of course, but there are also people who aren't allowed to learn about anything sexual in school for religious reasons and thus don't learn a thing at home either, which can lead to them blaming themselves if they end up as victims.



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18 Nov 2019, 2:46 pm

Sandpiper wrote:
I think your problem is a combination of "comic book-ish" and "rapists". Whatever you do you probably aren't going to get many readers to accept those two things going together.


Well the readers said it was comic book-ish in the sense that they form a group, and are smart enough to keep getting away with it, and that is what makes it comic bookish. But just because you have a group of villains, instead of one, and the group is smart enough to get away with the crimes, until the ending when they are caught, does that really make it comic-book-ish though?

Couldn't the readers be exaggerating it, by saying it's comic-book-ish?



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19 Nov 2019, 10:34 am

Donald Morton wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, and I definitely want to treat the subject matter right. It's just that rape has been used in fiction before, as the main crime in the story. So I thought it was okay to use as the main crime for a story, since it's been done before, but of course you want to handle it right.



Just because it was done before does not make it "Okay" to make it the main theme of your crime story. Do you have a sister? Ask her if it is okay. How about your mother? Have you run your brilliant idea by her? Do you have a girlfriend? Ask her. Treat the subject matter right? I don't even know what to say about that. Your continued pursuit of this topic shows that this is not something that you will ever understand.


Well I didn't run it by my Mom, but I asked my gf before and she thought it was fine to use it as the subject, because other movies have done it before as well, and it's not off limits, she said. But that's her opinion.



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23 Nov 2019, 6:22 pm

Where I live, the crime rate overall is quite low. There's very few murders.
There's some violent stuff among drug dealers, occasionally, but that's far removed from my life.
And then there's rape, which is not that rare, and happens in every section of society.
That makes it more problematic than other crimes in a story for a general audience - because it is more widely distributed and less restricted to certain subgroups, like gang violence. - Gang violence lends itself to fictionization more easily, because it doesn't touch on your audience's life reality. Whether your audience thinks that THAT is how crimes like that go down or not has less effect.
Serial killers are petfect for fictionalization, because they are so rare, you hurt only very few victim's families, and they are unlikely to watch a film about serial killers.



That said: your criminals are awfully smart.
Maybe the other cops are also a little disinterested, or even implicated somehow and actively hampering the investigation?
Then your criminals won't have to be that smart for the detective to struggle.
Or do they manage to blame someone else somehow by placing fake evidence. (Where they get someone else's sperm to leave as a trace is up to you).
Or maybe the cops don't care about the victims because they are working class ethnic minorities, and/or sex workers (that eould make it painfully real though, so you need to be very careful with that).
- except for the heroic detective.


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30 Nov 2019, 12:39 am

Well I was told not to make the police lazy or disinterested, but if that's the case, and I shouldn't, then the criminals have to be smart, but is that bad also?



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01 Dec 2019, 4:08 am

First of all, how many readers have there been? If you get the same criticism from various people independently, there likely is some truth to it. If one person has an issue with a book they may have misunderstood it or they may just not be your target audience.
Secondly, do you think the people criticizing your book were part of your intended target audience?


ironpony wrote:
Well I was told not to make the police lazy or disinterested, but if that's the case, and I shouldn't, then the criminals have to be smart, but is that bad also?

I think making the police lazy and disinterested is a lazy way of solving the problem of how the criminals can get away with their crimes for a long time (although you can make some police officers lazy if you want to). Making the criminals smart is a much better, but much more challenging way. It is easier to write realistic stupid characters than realistic smart characters, because to write smart characters you need a certain level of knowledge and smarts yourself.

Have you made sure your readers actually think your criminals are smart? I'm a bit concerned about this because they call it comic bookish and say it is not realistic and in comics it is quite common that character are smart 'by definition' but do a lot of things that wouldn't work in real life or that characters are made to be smart by actually making others stupid and they're only smart in comparison. Comic bookish in that sense can work for a shallow comedy, but since that's likely not what you're going for you want to make sure your smart characters actually come across as smart and that their smarts make it realistic that they don't get caught for a long time.

Another thing I think may be crucial from your first post is the 'how they operate'. You might want to find out what exactly your readers think is comic-bookish or unrealistic about how they operate. There obviously need to be something seriously wrong with your characters' minds if they form a rape gang, but even so you want character motivations that work for their twisted minds. And as said before, you want to make sure it is realistic that they get away with their crimes for as long as they do and that 'how they operate' doesn't get in the way by maybe not being as smart as it is supposed to be.

Well, obviously I've not read your book, but to sum up what I'm trying to say: Make sure you know exactly what aspect of your story your readers criticize. Try to find out what makes them think it's too comic-bookish or unrealistic. Those are two vague adjectives. You want to know what exactly gives your readers those impressions.

As others have pointed out, rape is a serious topic. You probably don't want it to be comic-bookish in the sense of shallow comedy, villains throwing cool one-liners or all in all treating the topic lightheartedly. If that's what you're going for you at least need to be aware that you have a distinct target audience and that some people will be offended by the plot.
Generally, I don't think that rape is a topic that must be avoided by all stories. It also isn't avoided by all stories. While a lot less prevalent than murder, you do find it in detective and crime stories fairly regularly and sometimes combined with murder. You find it in normal series intended for a general target audience.
You want to be aware of what rating you want your story to have and not be too graphic if you aim for a general target audience, though.

You said in your first post:
ironpony wrote:
I've been told that my story is too comic-bookish and not realistic enough, but it's suppose to be I think.

but if you get the same sort of criticism from many people, you're probably doing something with your story it is not supposed to be or you have a target audience very different from the people whose opinion you asked for. What they understand as comic-bookish and not realistic is something negative. Maybe it is a different kind of comic-bookish and unrealistic than how you understand these words. The first things I think of when I think of 'unrealistic' and 'comic-bookish' are certainly not things that mesh well with a story about rape. But again, I've not read it. I can only speculate what your reader might have meant and if you're still speculating too, you might want to talk to them again and get a more detailed criticism.



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06 Dec 2019, 1:20 am

NorthWind wrote:
First of all, how many readers have there been? If you get the same criticism from various people independently, there likely is some truth to it. If one person has an issue with a book they may have misunderstood it or they may just not be your target audience.
Secondly, do you think the people criticizing your book were part of your intended target audience?


ironpony wrote:
Well I was told not to make the police lazy or disinterested, but if that's the case, and I shouldn't, then the criminals have to be smart, but is that bad also?

I think making the police lazy and disinterested is a lazy way of solving the problem of how the criminals can get away with their crimes for a long time (although you can make some police officers lazy if you want to). Making the criminals smart is a much better, but much more challenging way. It is easier to write realistic stupid characters than realistic smart characters, because to write smart characters you need a certain level of knowledge and smarts yourself.

Have you made sure your readers actually think your criminals are smart? I'm a bit concerned about this because they call it comic bookish and say it is not realistic and in comics it is quite common that character are smart 'by definition' but do a lot of things that wouldn't work in real life or that characters are made to be smart by actually making others stupid and they're only smart in comparison. Comic bookish in that sense can work for a shallow comedy, but since that's likely not what you're going for you want to make sure your smart characters actually come across as smart and that their smarts make it realistic that they don't get caught for a long time.

Another thing I think may be crucial from your first post is the 'how they operate'. You might want to find out what exactly your readers think is comic-bookish or unrealistic about how they operate. There obviously need to be something seriously wrong with your characters' minds if they form a rape gang, but even so you want character motivations that work for their twisted minds. And as said before, you want to make sure it is realistic that they get away with their crimes for as long as they do and that 'how they operate' doesn't get in the way by maybe not being as smart as it is supposed to be.

Well, obviously I've not read your book, but to sum up what I'm trying to say: Make sure you know exactly what aspect of your story your readers criticize. Try to find out what makes them think it's too comic-bookish or unrealistic. Those are two vague adjectives. You want to know what exactly gives your readers those impressions.

As others have pointed out, rape is a serious topic. You probably don't want it to be comic-bookish in the sense of shallow comedy, villains throwing cool one-liners or all in all treating the topic lightheartedly. If that's what you're going for you at least need to be aware that you have a distinct target audience and that some people will be offended by the plot.
Generally, I don't think that rape is a topic that must be avoided by all stories. It also isn't avoided by all stories. While a lot less prevalent than murder, you do find it in detective and crime stories fairly regularly and sometimes combined with murder. You find it in normal series intended for a general target audience.
You want to be aware of what rating you want your story to have and not be too graphic if you aim for a general target audience, though.

You said in your first post:
ironpony wrote:
I've been told that my story is too comic-bookish and not realistic enough, but it's suppose to be I think.

but if you get the same sort of criticism from many people, you're probably doing something with your story it is not supposed to be or you have a target audience very different from the people whose opinion you asked for. What they understand as comic-bookish and not realistic is something negative. Maybe it is a different kind of comic-bookish and unrealistic than how you understand these words. The first things I think of when I think of 'unrealistic' and 'comic-bookish' are certainly not things that mesh well with a story about rape. But again, I've not read it. I can only speculate what your reader might have meant and if you're still speculating too, you might want to talk to them again and get a more detailed criticism.


There has been four readers so far. They all have different opinions. Yes I wanted to make the criminals smart but a couple of reader say they are too smart, to the point where it's not realistic for criminals to be such masterminds, and it would be more realistic for the police to be more inept instead. Is that true, and that's more realistic, or is that just lazy?



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07 Dec 2019, 3:20 am

Sounds like you're trying to write a non murder murder mystery. Further, instead of Mr Body being killed just once, and the detective has to figure who did that one crime ( Was he bludgeoned to death in the drawing room by Colonel Mustard, or was garroted by the noose in the sitting room by Professor Plum?) you want it to be an ongoing crime. And you're swapping out murder with rape.

You could set it up so that the perp is some high born spoiled scion of a rich family and that the cops are incompentent on purpose to cover up his crime?



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07 Dec 2019, 12:13 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Sounds like you're trying to write a non murder murder mystery. Further, instead of Mr Body being killed just once, and the detective has to figure who did that one crime ( Was he bludgeoned to death in the drawing room by Colonel Mustard, or was garroted by the noose in the sitting room by Professor Plum?) you want it to be an ongoing crime. And you're swapping out murder with rape.

You could set it up so that the perp is some high born spoiled scion of a rich family and that the cops are incompentent on purpose to cover up his crime?


This.

Then you have the detective struggling with his morality. If he exposes the whole secret, he could risk his job and possibly a smear campaign against him and his work? If he keeps quiet, knowing what seediness is occuring, it keeps him up at night. It creates a drive for the character. Working out what he wants and needs to do in this moral dilemma.

Corruption like this reminds me of Game Of Thrones, as mentioned a handful of times in this thread.


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08 Dec 2019, 5:21 am

ironpony wrote:
There has been four readers so far. They all have different opinions.

Four is not a lot, but you have to make do with what you can get. How good they are at giving criticism may depend on many things like, whether they usually read this genre, if they are writers themselves, if they are knowledgeable in and subject the story touches upon etc. They can probably tell you more useful things than people here for the mere fact that they've read the story.

ironpony wrote:
Yes I wanted to make the criminals smart but a couple of reader say they are too smart, to the point where it's not realistic for criminals to be such masterminds, and it would be more realistic for the police to be more inept instead. Is that true, and that's more realistic, or is that just lazy?

There's no such thing as too smart for a criminal but not too smart for a person. Some crimes - and getting caught - may well be correlated with low intelligence, but being stupid is not a prerequisite for being a criminal. There have been serial killers with genius-level intelligence. You're also not the first to write a highly intelligent criminal in fiction. The mind of someone committing serious crimes for fun or due to a paraphilia is certainly warped - they lack a conscience, may be less risk-averse than a typical person or may not care about their own future, may be thrill-seeking and prone to boredom unless they do something extreme, may lack fear, may have a superiority-complex and overestimate themselves - but they are not necessarily unintelligent. That said, since you have a group of criminals it may be unrealistic if they are all geniuses, depending on the size of the group. However, if one person does the planning, that alone makes the less intelligent ones less prone to many mistakes.

Now, I've certainly seen stories where something that could be described as unrealistically smart bothered me - although I would usually have described the issue differently as I saw the problem elsewhere. I don't think it's useful if I go into detail about this, because whatever your readers mean with their criticism is likely something different.



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09 Dec 2019, 11:54 pm

Okay thanks. Well users said that they believe that a group of rapists, going around comitting the crimes out of getting revenge on society, is not believable, so how do you make it believable?

One writer I asked said I should put a diclaimer in the opening, saying that this story is meant to take place in a comic-book type world, and is not suppose to be set in the real world. But would such a disclaimer actually help?



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09 Dec 2019, 11:58 pm

Okay thanks. Well users said that they believe that a group of rapists, going around comitting the crimes out of getting revenge on society, is not believable, so how do you make it believable?

One writer I asked said I should put a diclaimer in the opening, saying that this story is meant to take place in a comic-book type world, and is not suppose to be set in the real world. But would such a disclaimer actually help?



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10 Dec 2019, 10:42 pm

ironpony wrote:
Okay thanks. Well users said that they believe that a group of rapists, going around comitting the crimes out of getting revenge on society, is not believable, so how do you make it believable?

One writer I asked said I should put a diclaimer in the opening, saying that this story is meant to take place in a comic-book type world, and is not suppose to be set in the real world. But would such a disclaimer actually help?


Only if the book has a more general comic-bookish feel to it- but then it would also be unnecessary. Otherwise, to me, it would feel like a preemptive justification for bad writing
Like someone had accused you, of, say, a really unrealistic ending, and you went "but it's supposed to be comical and absurd".
If the reader doesn't get it from reading it, that's not great.

This might be a stupid question, but have you thought about making it more comic-ish?
Like, make the characters into caricatures, and make it more of a spectacularly wild ride... Like a Quentin Tarantino film?
I mean, that's just a thought, it might br very unfitting for what you're going for ....
(I'm also not a fan of genius psychopath stories myself, but can live with the genre when it acknowledges it's comically overdrawn figures and plots)


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13 Dec 2019, 1:25 am

Yeah I thought of doing it that way. I thought that's what I was sort of going for. For example, a movie like Natural Born Killers is not realistic at all, yet a lot of people do not have a problem with that.

How do I tell the reader that not being realistic is okay though?