Do we really lack understanding of non-verbal social cues?

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I don't think I lack theory of mind. My actions are usually based on how I know others will react or feel.

For example my boyfriend's sister bought me 2 bath bombs for Christmas last year and I used them both up within a week just after Christmas. I took a picture of how beautifully coloured they made the bath water but for some reason I forgot to send it to her as a way of saying thanks (even though I had already said thanks when I'd opened the gift). And today (11 months later) I saw the picture on my phone whilst scrolling through my gallery and I thought about sending it to her now. At first I thought, "she'll think that I left it a bit late to thank her now", but then I thought, "but maybe I could say that I hadn't got round to using them until now". But then I thought, "but she might think that I'm sending her a picture now as a way of hinting that I want more bath bombs from her this Christmas" - which made me abort the idea entirely. Bath bombs are expensive and I'm not the sort of person to expect people to buy me gifts.

I made these decisions in a shorter time than it took you to read this post, meaning it was subconscious. But just because it was subconscious doesn't mean you don't know you made the decision afterwards. It means it was natural at the time without involving much logical thought.

When I first started coming to forums at all online related to ASD it was around age 22, which was 2002, and the first place I started going was a place called 'Aspie Hangout' on Delphi. There was another lady there, maybe five or six years older, who worked in care services for people on the spectrum and seemed to have a very similar 'set' of circumstances and wiring to what I do. I bring her up because we both started coming to the conclusion that there's at least one interesting split between HFA and Asperger's as we understood them. It seemed like people who had Asperger's or who'd immediately by dx'd as Asperger's were the more classic absent minded professor types who might have difficulty with things like theory of mind, reading other people, etc. and would be the ultra-male brain or so highly systematic as to not understand people. People who were more HFA or possibly very high functioning but enough quirks for people to notice might have been thrown in the Asperger's basket to the degree that Asperger's might have been taken for simply being very high-functioning autism or confused for that when really high-functioning autism seems to have no necessary bearing on your EQ, ability to read others, etc..

I can say perhaps that even given that in my early and mid 20's I'd score on the other side of NT's on the EQ test (very high) that when I was younger I had problems but a lot of that stemmed from the grifting and games that kids play on each other as they hit their elementary years. I also had some moments where people teasing each other, like a husband and wife next door, I was in a place where people dogging on people they cared about as a term of endearment wasn't something I was used to and I didn't know how to read it. I suppose then the question is - is that a sign of Asperger's when as a kid you're raised by relatively serious teachers, or when there are games being played the rules are really clear and breaking the rules has very clear consequences of writing sentences or standing/sitting in the corner, and then you watch adults do things to each other that would get you sent to the corner and it's seen as acceptable or even a core component of communication and balancing relationships?

If anything a lot of us perhaps just didn't take to lying from a young age and that in and of itself is seen as strange or a sign that something might be wrong. I don't necessarily know that being honest is a sign of autism. I think if I had any signs indicative of Asperger's (I was dx'd in 1991 as PDD-NOS with Asperger's traits) it was the star charts in my room or obsession with dinosaurs, astronomy, gem stones, chemistry kits, acrylic painging (yes - my parents let me do that), pretty much my Sagan-esque love affair with the universe that I had from 1st grade onward.

As time goes on I actually find myself more and more confused as to what the autistic spectrum even means. I can see plenty of people on here who are quite game-theorhetic in their approach to other people where you'll get constant sarcasm and seldom an honest word and that seems to just be a rule of the world in general that it's a certain percentage who operate like that. So many things that aren't supposed to happen with people on the spectrum do all the time. That and if you can't peg this necessarily to theory of mind, or ability to read people, or even social skills deficits (that's another incredibly strange idea - you discover as much when you gain all the social skills and find out it's not about social skills but fundamental neurological conformity, like being able to say something thoughtlessly, with no filter, and not confusing the people around you). If it's not any of those things necessarily then what's left - sensory-motor issues?

In personal terms, I get to interpret nonverbal cues, it varies too much for me to be consistent to be sure.
My main issue involves paying attention to it.
If only my emotions and senses can regulate itself well and consistently.

I might even be too good at reading nonverbal cues and tone if I paid attention well.
Sometimes I don't even need to see someone's faces for it. I just had to see this person move, and the tones of their voices.

After all, I cannot rely on words well and that's where I had to put too much resources at it, other than dealing with internal and external stimuli.
At this area, my issue is more to do with processing, timing and reaction times.

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As for social skills, it involves too much EF.
Even if I got the message the person feels and thinks, wants or needs something...
It won't matter since I do not always have the means to act on my intended reaction.

Unless I have the EF for it -- I'd be frustrated myself, frustrating and confuse others..
I've seen the difference myself, and observations seen the me behind the dysfunction -- the skills and experiences I've accumulated the whole time...

Trapped in entangling EF issues.
So my 'social skills' resembled more like management skills -- than the natural flows of interpersonal dynamics, of expressive and receptive personality reaction shifts.
And I hate management. I want the EF issues out.

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How else I was so good at distracting people while I sneak around their backs?

Yes, I'm that type of autistic -- one that people can underestimate until they turn back in me.
The kind you'd put your guard down for a moment, then not realizing I did some mischief until it was too late.

It happened to be the commonly observed in classic nonverbal types with no apparent sense of innate appropriate social instinct and boundaries.

The very type a caretaker or parent had to be vigilant for, otherwise I'd 'disobey' and wander off.

And I can blend, pass and not get lost.
So... I'd be a truly high functioning classic autistic. Just happened to be physically and mentally passing and verbal enough to pass for Aspergers.

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Interpreting things were never my specialty either . Have only a persons words to deal with , but my benefit. Is , I will repeat back to them what was said . As if to ask for clarification . What’s worse for the person am dealing with is that when I repeat back exactly how their words are interpreted . And it leaves almost no room for their words to be interpreted any other way , they have a tendency to try to change the subject. As if they have been cornered by their own words . And will respond to them with no margin for error in my response to them . Otherwise they generally risk , having been wrong in what they have said. And , only if am feeling kind toward them do I allow for misinterpretation of what has been stated. Have not considered this a drawback but a precision in the use of language . This method does not. Always allow for smooth interactions between persons but rather . Extremely direct communications . As not having to worry too much about making or losing friends , cause the friends , I do have ,
Have a keen understanding of how . I Talk , and relate and respond .

It's not what we claim it's what NTs claim about us.

Autism is a spectrum. Some can and some can't.

Myself, I over analyse in a negative way. If someone looks tired then I assume they look angry. Apparently NT teenagers do the same thing, and maybe NT kids but we have no studies looking into how kids see it.

For me personally, I find that I can process body language and non-verbal cues, but I sometimes have trouble understanding how they fit in the larger social context.

And me , I can miss social and non verbal cues ,, but am direct ....and if I were a NT ,prolly would be much nicer at seeing these subtle things .missing these ,.. So I am trying to remember , to make my interactions with
With persons smoother , have tried both ways , neither method seem to get me a lotta friends .
But am still learning the social cues part ..

I spend a good portion of my day on the phone with strangers for my job. Tone now is the only thing I tune into when I'm speaking with someone. Their words are almost irrelevant the tone is really what drives the conversation. This has helped me to also be mindful of my own tone, mostly mirroring the way the person who answers the phone says hello so I'm picking up on their level and enthusiasm.

The early post by me stating I have a “keen understanding of , how I say something ...”..
This is a official retraction of the statement .

*squinch*
*pout*
*shrug*
*smirk*

Hi @Joe90 I have been told I lack understanding of social cues.
Auties and Aspies who read fiction as children may have more of a better idea of them.

I could tell disapproving looks even though I dont look at eyes, it was the way people twisted their mouths. Thier tone of voice.

Maybe look at what Jane has done/not done to show her lack of understanding of safety?
For example if someone says, X never clears his desk, and the same gestures etc are given by people, it is obvious that it is X who always has the messy desk.
Even though I lack social cues, I get some. I struggle with ambiguity, vagueness etc, but if there was a new colleague, I would make sure they felt included.

You are sensitive like a lot of us and have affective empathy and seem to hate upsetting people which is possibly why you didnt point it out to Jane.

I get some hints and can tell when people are saying something while not saying it verbally but struggle with other social situations.

I'm just guessing but we are all different, I don't have echolalia, I dont always have to collect things, we dont have to fit every criterion in the manual.

If you read fiction as a child this will have given you a better insight into social issues.

I was terrible at understanding "non-verbal social cues" until I reached about my 30s.

I was bad at understanding them till my 40s.

I've been "not so bad" at understanding them since---though I do get better with age.

Hello Joe90,
I read your posts with interest, and it seems to me that your experiences are not typical of most autistics.

Most of us test with low empathy. Those of us with good awareness into our condition can detect our own difficulties with communication and connecting with people. Though for myself, I know I remained mostly unaware of my deficits until well into adulthood, so it can take some time to come to full awareness.

Please don't get upset at this comment, I'm not trying to cause trouble this is just my non-expert thoughts without knowing you, only from reading your posts. So ignore it if it seems wrong or upsetting:
Since social deficits are a key diagnostic criterion for autism, if you do not believe you have deficits in this area, it is possible you may have been been misdiagnosed.

Having said that, I think the more likely scenario is that when you were diagnosed and found out about autism you may have internalised some of the negative stereotypes about the condition. Things like autistics being completely literal and unable to lie, having no theory of mind, having no empathy. These stereotypes arose from studies of moderately to severely autistic boys at a young age, and are out-dated if not completely wrong. While we Asperger-type adults have some difficulties in these areas, it is simply not true to say that we are completely incapable. Adult females, in particular, can learn to cope quite well socially, particularly in familiar environments.

So my answer to the thread query would be: No, we do not completely lack understanding of non-verbal social cues. But I believe it is the nature of the condition that we will certainly have difficulties or delays with understanding in some situations.