Can Autism be conditioned out of you

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ASPartOfMe
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19 Feb 2021, 6:48 pm

magz wrote:

Fnord wrote:

When I went to school (1960s-1970s), there was no official recognition of autism (at least, not in my hometown) -- only "Mental Retardation" or having a bad attitude. "ret*ds" were placed in "Special Ed" classes and forgotten, while kids with bad attitudes were ridiculed by teachers, punished by parents, and beaten up by other students.

I guess that's what happened to my uncle... and the school psychologist who tried to "fix his bad attitude" was, to say the least, not helpful.

I was the opposite back in the 60s and 70s. I was not considered a guy with a bad attitude, but “painfully shy”. It worked in keeping the adults off my back but it drew the bullies to me like a magnet. Of course that made the issue worse by further discouraging me from engaging. Lack of eye contact further signaled fear. Where the adults you ask? Not doing what they did not do in that era because bullying was considered just what boys do, a normal part of growing up. It was up to you to deal with it.

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19 Feb 2021, 6:53 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

That's the basis for most of Applied Behavioral Analysis-----and especially a subset of this known as Discrete Trial Training.

In Discrete Trial Training and other forms of ABA, autistic children are given various types of punishments (some physical) if they exhibit stereotypically autistic traits.

When I worked in clinical services for children in the late 70's I saw how Operant Conditioning often crossed the line from focusing on harmful behaviour to attempting to eradicate certain features of Autism such as stimming.

I still work in clinical services - mainly on a consultative basis and remain vigilant for any misuse of ABA or Positive Behavioural Support techniques.

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aspieprincess123
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20 Feb 2021, 5:18 am

Makes sense it's just weird how my partner's real dad thought he could condition it out.

Personally I think it's done more harm than good and so does his counselor.

Course his real dad parades that he cured his son and he is the reason why he's done so well.

It annoys me cause he cut ties with his son when he was 13 so how can he claim to be a good parent. Annoys me cause he works in the same department I work in so have to sometimes speak to him makes me sick when I have to.

PassingThrough
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20 Feb 2021, 1:31 pm

Fnord wrote:

My father tried to "condition" my socially awkward behavior out of me, instead of quietly correcting and guiding me to more socially appropriate behavior.

And by "condition", I mean "beat".

His methods did not work -- I am still "Autistic/PDD-NOS+PTSD".

I'm sorry to hear it. That's what I assumed the "conditioning" was in the original post (not that the poster was asking about it, but that it's what the father did).

There's no shortage of people who believe they see through the situation better than the experts do, and they know how to dig into their bag of old-school methods to try to prove themselves right.

I'm not a professional, but I'd think the right mentality and language is something like this: Autistic people can benefit from professional therapy to improve their life skills and manage any accompanying conditions (anxiety, OCD, etc.). It cannot be "conditioned out of them," and attempts to do that are nearly certain to do little good and lots of harm.

r00tb33r
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25 Feb 2021, 4:34 pm

I feel like I have conditioned a lot of it out of me, except perhaps the social impairment. Working on the latter now.

zmac8
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29 Mar 2021, 3:25 am

Fnord wrote:

Exactly the same here!

everybody_i5
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29 Mar 2021, 10:25 am

No.

Because neurotypical people cannot retain details, they conflate all three current diagnostic "levels" of autism. They will see a Level 1 and think that they're looking at a Level 3 who "grew out of it."

NTs remember symbols, feelings, and social hierarchies. They only remember details for things they practice every day. Even if you were to tell them that there are 3 levels of autism, or that autism is a spectrum encompassing many different diagnoses, they are only likely to remember this information if it is repeated to them often.

NTs can't retain detailed information unless they use the information every day in some capacity. An NT who studies autism and engages in the subject matter regularly may be able to retain details about this one specific subject, but the average person will not be able to remember or retain it. If asked to repeat information they will give a vague synopsis, not a rote memory.

However, with occupational behavioral therapy, certain negative behaviors associated with autism (such as self-injury and certain learning problems) can be ameliorated. An autistic person with a normal IQ who has received therapy may seem like a neurotypical person to the untrained eye, especially because neurotypical people are often unable to see or retain details, and will not be able to understand that they are observing autistic behaviors. If they do not use the information every day, they won't be able to access the information.

If a neurotypical person sees someone who is a bit odd, but is not mentally ret*d, they will believe that such a person could not possibly have autism because "not all autistic people have low IQs" is a detail. Neurotypical people cannot retain and do not care about details. They care about black and white categories, social hierarchies, and retaining generalized information.

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29 Mar 2021, 10:30 am

everybody_i5 wrote:

No.

Because neurotypical people cannot retain details, they conflate all three current diagnostic "levels" of autism. They will see a Level 1 and think that they're looking at a Level 3 who "grew out of it."

NTs remember symbols, feelings, and social hierarchies. They only remember details for things they practice every day. Even if you were to tell them that there are 3 levels of autism, or that autism is a spectrum encompassing many different diagnoses, they are only likely to remember this information if it is repeated to them often.

NTs can't retain detailed information unless they use the information every day in some capacity. An NT who studies autism and engages in the subject matter regularly may be able to retain details about this one specific subject, but the average person will not be able to remember or retain it. If asked to repeat information they will give a vague synopsis, not a rote memory.

However, with occupational behavioral therapy, certain negative behaviors associated with autism (such as self-injury and certain learning problems) can be ameliorated. An autistic person with a normal IQ who has received therapy may seem like a neurotypical person to the untrained eye, especially because neurotypical people are often unable to see or retain details, and will not be able to understand that they are observing autistic behaviors. If they do not use the information every day, they won't be able to access the information.

If a neurotypical person sees someone who is a bit odd, but is not mentally ret*d, they will believe that such a person could not possibly have autism because "not all autistic people have low IQs" is a detail. Neurotypical people cannot retain and do not care about details. They care about black and white categories, social hierarchies, and retaining generalized information.

What you are describing is autistic behavior -- black-and-white thinking, failure to perceive nuances, failure to recognize behavioral cues, sweeping generalizations, et cetera. Please adjust your thinking and try again. Thank you.

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everybody_i5
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29 Mar 2021, 10:38 am

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

No.

Because neurotypical people cannot retain details, they conflate all three current diagnostic "levels" of autism. They will see a Level 1 and think that they're looking at a Level 3 who "grew out of it."

NTs remember symbols, feelings, and social hierarchies. They only remember details for things they practice every day. Even if you were to tell them that there are 3 levels of autism, or that autism is a spectrum encompassing many different diagnoses, they are only likely to remember this information if it is repeated to them often.

NTs can't retain detailed information unless they use the information every day in some capacity. An NT who studies autism and engages in the subject matter regularly may be able to retain details about this one specific subject, but the average person will not be able to remember or retain it. If asked to repeat information they will give a vague synopsis, not a rote memory.

However, with occupational behavioral therapy, certain negative behaviors associated with autism (such as self-injury and certain learning problems) can be ameliorated. An autistic person with a normal IQ who has received therapy may seem like a neurotypical person to the untrained eye, especially because neurotypical people are often unable to see or retain details, and will not be able to understand that they are observing autistic behaviors. If they do not use the information every day, they won't be able to access the information.

If a neurotypical person sees someone who is a bit odd, but is not mentally ret*d, they will believe that such a person could not possibly have autism because "not all autistic people have low IQs" is a detail. Neurotypical people cannot retain and do not care about details. They care about black and white categories, social hierarchies, and retaining generalized information.

Then I guess most neurotypical people actually have autism.

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29 Mar 2021, 10:42 am

everybody_i5 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

No.

Because neurotypical people cannot retain details, they conflate all three current diagnostic "levels" of autism. They will see a Level 1 and think that they're looking at a Level 3 who "grew out of it."

NTs remember symbols, feelings, and social hierarchies. They only remember details for things they practice every day. Even if you were to tell them that there are 3 levels of autism, or that autism is a spectrum encompassing many different diagnoses, they are only likely to remember this information if it is repeated to them often.

NTs can't retain detailed information unless they use the information every day in some capacity. An NT who studies autism and engages in the subject matter regularly may be able to retain details about this one specific subject, but the average person will not be able to remember or retain it. If asked to repeat information they will give a vague synopsis, not a rote memory.

However, with occupational behavioral therapy, certain negative behaviors associated with autism (such as self-injury and certain learning problems) can be ameliorated. An autistic person with a normal IQ who has received therapy may seem like a neurotypical person to the untrained eye, especially because neurotypical people are often unable to see or retain details, and will not be able to understand that they are observing autistic behaviors. If they do not use the information every day, they won't be able to access the information.

If a neurotypical person sees someone who is a bit odd, but is not mentally ret*d, they will believe that such a person could not possibly have autism because "not all autistic people have low IQs" is a detail. Neurotypical people cannot retain and do not care about details. They care about black and white categories, social hierarchies, and retaining generalized information.

Then I guess most neurotypical people actually have autism.

Have you ever heard of "Projection"?

Autism is a spectrum, with a continuum of severity, and with NTs at one end and the severely autistic at the other.

When you have seen one NT, you have seen one NT.

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everybody_i5
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29 Mar 2021, 10:47 am

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

No.

Because neurotypical people cannot retain details, they conflate all three current diagnostic "levels" of autism. They will see a Level 1 and think that they're looking at a Level 3 who "grew out of it."

NTs remember symbols, feelings, and social hierarchies. They only remember details for things they practice every day. Even if you were to tell them that there are 3 levels of autism, or that autism is a spectrum encompassing many different diagnoses, they are only likely to remember this information if it is repeated to them often.

NTs can't retain detailed information unless they use the information every day in some capacity. An NT who studies autism and engages in the subject matter regularly may be able to retain details about this one specific subject, but the average person will not be able to remember or retain it. If asked to repeat information they will give a vague synopsis, not a rote memory.

However, with occupational behavioral therapy, certain negative behaviors associated with autism (such as self-injury and certain learning problems) can be ameliorated. An autistic person with a normal IQ who has received therapy may seem like a neurotypical person to the untrained eye, especially because neurotypical people are often unable to see or retain details, and will not be able to understand that they are observing autistic behaviors. If they do not use the information every day, they won't be able to access the information.

If a neurotypical person sees someone who is a bit odd, but is not mentally ret*d, they will believe that such a person could not possibly have autism because "not all autistic people have low IQs" is a detail. Neurotypical people cannot retain and do not care about details. They care about black and white categories, social hierarchies, and retaining generalized information.

Then I guess most neurotypical people actually have autism.

Just take the information and shut up. If you keep arguing with me about everything I say, I just won't say any more things, and you won't have the information. Just take the information.

Fnord
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29 Mar 2021, 10:50 am

everybody_i5 wrote:

Just take the information and shut up. If you keep arguing with me about everything I say, I just won't say any more things, and you won't have the information. Just take the information.

Your information is incorrect, so I do not have to "take it"; nor do I have to "shut up" about it, either.

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everybody_i5
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29 Mar 2021, 10:54 am

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

Just take the information and shut up. If you keep arguing with me about everything I say, I just won't say any more things, and you won't have the information. Just take the information.

Your information is incorrect, so I do not have to "take it"; nor do I have to "shut up" about it, either.

Then f**k off and stop annoying me? You're not the only person on the planet. Someone somewhere will find what I said useful. If you think that I am so terrible and that I have nothing useful to say, you can block me.

Fnord
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29 Mar 2021, 11:00 am

everybody_i5 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

Just take the information and shut up. If you keep arguing with me about everything I say, I just won't say any more things, and you won't have the information. Just take the information.

Your information is incorrect, so I do not have to "take it"; nor do I have to "shut up" about it, either.

Have you read The Rules yet? I suggest you do.

You will find that people on this website will disagree with you and will point out where you have made an incorrect statement. They will also challenge your claims and ask for evidence, even when your claims seem to be valid. I suggest that you learn to deal with it, and ease up on the profanity and the giving of orders before the mods notice and take action.

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everybody_i5
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29 Mar 2021, 11:04 am

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

Just take the information and shut up. If you keep arguing with me about everything I say, I just won't say any more things, and you won't have the information. Just take the information.

Your information is incorrect, so I do not have to "take it"; nor do I have to "shut up" about it, either.

Do you know what's sad? All you're doing is confirming my prejudices.

Fnord
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29 Mar 2021, 11:14 am

everybody_i5 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

everybody_i5 wrote:

Just take the information and shut up. If you keep arguing with me about everything I say, I just won't say any more things, and you won't have the information. Just take the information.

Your information is incorrect, so I do not have to "take it"; nor do I have to "shut up" about it, either.

Have you read The Rules yet? I suggest you do. You will find that people on this website will disagree with you and will point out where you have made an incorrect statement. They will also challenge your claims and ask for evidence, even when your claims seem to be valid. I suggest that you learn to deal with it, and ease up on the profanity and the giving of orders before the mods notice and take action.

Do you know what's sad? All you're doing is confirming my prejudices.

Which ones? There seem to be many.

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