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funeralxempire
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11 Aug 2021, 8:48 pm

Do you think it's possible to improve the site in a vacuum, or is the site just a reflection of the norms of the society the posters come from?


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11 Aug 2021, 8:52 pm

HeroOfHyrule wrote:
[the moment I find somewhere with enough actually respectful autistic people I am leaving

Maybe we should like, migrate to tumblr. Lotta cool autistic queer people on tumblr.



funeralxempire
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11 Aug 2021, 8:58 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
[the moment I find somewhere with enough actually respectful autistic people I am leaving

Maybe we should like, migrate to tumblr. Lotta cool autistic queer people on tumblr.


Well, please drop by the Discord if you choose to move on. :nerdy:


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11 Aug 2021, 9:06 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
[the moment I find somewhere with enough actually respectful autistic people I am leaving

Maybe we should like, migrate to tumblr. Lotta cool autistic queer people on tumblr.


Well, please drop by the Discord if you choose to move on. :nerdy:

I'd love to!! Could you DM me a discord link?



HeroOfHyrule
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11 Aug 2021, 9:10 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Do you think it's possible to improve the site in a vacuum, or is the site just a reflection of the norms of the society the posters come from?

I have honestly no idea if it can be improved or where the hell it comes from. Sometimes I feel like it comes from the "different time" older posters have come from (which isn't the excuse they make it out to be, and there's plenty of younger posters that participate in this), and sometimes I feel like it's flat out a deflection of insecurity. I cannot imagine why else a bunch of people with messed up genes and neurology would spew such vitriol about other people with messed up genes and neurology (there are some genes and neurological changes associated with being trans), other than they're insecure and see trans people as an easy scapegoat.

I don't really know how you can get a good portion of the site to not essentially act like they're too old to learn anything new, and/or basically go "well, autistic people are weird and messed up, but at least we're not all one of those mentally ill transes!" It becomes more apparent that the latter is part of it when users get genuinely angry over the increasingly observed, raised rate of gender identity issues in people with ASD.



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11 Aug 2021, 9:14 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
[the moment I find somewhere with enough actually respectful autistic people I am leaving

Maybe we should like, migrate to tumblr. Lotta cool autistic queer people on tumblr.

I've considered that. I've actually been using an app that's similar in userbase to Tumblr and has quite a few autistic people around my age, but it's only slightly less dead than this forum. If Tumblr isn't as dead maybe I'll start using it again.



funeralxempire
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11 Aug 2021, 9:19 pm

HeroOfHyrule wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Do you think it's possible to improve the site in a vacuum, or is the site just a reflection of the norms of the society the posters come from?

I have honestly no idea if it can be improved or where the hell it comes from. Sometimes I feel like it comes from the "different time" older posters have come from (which isn't the excuse they make it out to be, and there's plenty of younger posters that participate in this), and sometimes I feel like it's flat out a deflection of insecurity. I cannot imagine why else a bunch of people with messed up genes and neurology would spew such vitriol about other people with messed up genes and neurology (there are some genes and neurological changes associated with being trans), other than they're insecure and see trans people as an easy scapegoat.

I don't really know how you can get a good portion of the site to not essentially act like they're too old to learn anything new, and/or basically go "well, autistic people are weird and messed up, but at least we're not all one of those mentally ill transes!" It becomes more apparent that the latter is part of it when users get genuinely angry over the increasingly observed, raised rate of gender identity issues in people with ASD.


I wonder if also it's that they didn't have the support or freedom to question such things, so the hostility (when it comes from older folks with ASD who maybe don't conform very strongly themselves) might be due to their own toxic experiences.

I've noticed there's sometimes other contexts where a degree of generational jealousy seems to be a factor. For folks who grew up with toxic mindsets and abuse as the norm those experiences hurt them for the rest of their lives even when they don't recognize that's going on.


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11 Aug 2021, 9:30 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I wonder if also it's that they didn't have the support or freedom to question such things, so the hostility (when it comes from older folks with ASD who maybe don't conform very strongly themselves) might be due to their own toxic experiences.

I've noticed there's sometimes other contexts where a degree of generational jealousy seems to be a factor. For folks who grew up with toxic mindsets and abuse as the norm those experiences hurt them for the rest of their lives even when they don't recognize that's going on.

I can agree with this and I don't doubt that's a part of it. That aspect is unfortunate since it just perpetuates that same toxicity and stifling behaviour.



funeralxempire
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11 Aug 2021, 10:22 pm

HeroOfHyrule wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I wonder if also it's that they didn't have the support or freedom to question such things, so the hostility (when it comes from older folks with ASD who maybe don't conform very strongly themselves) might be due to their own toxic experiences.

I've noticed there's sometimes other contexts where a degree of generational jealousy seems to be a factor. For folks who grew up with toxic mindsets and abuse as the norm those experiences hurt them for the rest of their lives even when they don't recognize that's going on.

I can agree with this and I don't doubt that's a part of it. That aspect is unfortunate since it just perpetuates that same toxicity and stifling behaviour.


Definitely. It's a cycle that traps people. It also isn't just limited to issues related to gender/sexual identity either. You see the bootstraps school of mental health advice around here quite a bit, and that's kinda similar (I wasn't supported therefore I don't know how to support, therefore you should learn to not expect support)

I try to have empathy for all parties involved in those interactions because it's hard to know exactly how older folks who carry that sort of bitter toxicity would have turned out if they grew up different norms around them.

If you hide that stuff, suck it up and deal with it was the only means of coping they've ever known, it's what was expected and normal for them, when they see other people starting to flout those rules the jealousy it triggers might be disturbing, so they don't feel like imitating or like they want those norms too, they just get angry that those weirdos are breaking the norms they've had to just accept their whole lives.

Of course most of that passes by at a subconscious level because that's how we hide things from ourselves when we can't face them.

I can relate to some extent because as I get older I realize how much stuff I've masked over my life and every time I learn to minimize the masking I feel less miserable and toxic as a result. I assume other folks going through life with a gender-conforming (or whatever conforming) mask on feel less well over-all as a result of it and that while taking that negativity out on others isn't right or fair, but that the real solution is healing them.

That said, I don't think anyone should have to tolerate bigoted, triggering interactions in spaces intended to be welcoming to them.


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11 Aug 2021, 10:44 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
If you hide that stuff, suck it up and deal with it was the only means of coping they've ever known, it's what was expected and normal for them, when they see other people starting to flout those rules the jealousy it triggers might be disturbing, so they don't feel like imitating or like they want those norms too, they just get angry that those weirdos are breaking the norms they've had to just accept their whole lives.

lol I notice a lot of the time, it's often GNC women who say "If this trans stuff had been around when I was 14 or 15, I probably would have considered myself trans" and I'm like..... hey I don't think you're making the point you think you're making, but you do you sis



HeroOfHyrule
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11 Aug 2021, 10:51 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Definitely. It's a cycle that traps people. It also isn't just limited to issues related to gender/sexual identity either. You see the bootstraps school of mental health advice around here quite a bit, and that's kinda similar (I wasn't supported therefore I don't know how to support, therefore you should learn to not expect support)

I try to have empathy for all parties involved in those interactions because it's hard to know exactly how older folks who carry that sort of bitter toxicity would have turned out if they grew up different norms around them.

If you hide that stuff, suck it up and deal with it was the only means of coping they've ever known, it's what was expected and normal for them, when they see other people starting to flout those rules the jealousy it triggers might be disturbing, so they don't feel like imitating or like they want those norms too, they just get angry that those weirdos are breaking the norms they've had to just accept their whole lives.

Of course most of that passes by at a subconscious level because that's how we hide things from ourselves when we can't face them.

I can relate to some extent because as I get older I realize how much stuff I've masked over my life and every time I learn to minimize the masking I feel less miserable and toxic as a result. I assume other folks going through life with a gender-conforming (or whatever conforming) mask on feel less well over-all as a result of it and that while taking that negativity out on others isn't right or fair, but that the real solution is healing them.

That said, I don't think anyone should have to tolerate bigoted, triggering interactions in spaces intended to be welcoming to them.

I try to keep things like this in mind and have empathy for these people, too, which is probably why I don't often "go off" like this. Maybe I've also slowly let myself become accustomed to those behaviours, and "accept" them as unchangeable... Though I've become less and less tolerant of it recently, especially as I see whole threads turn into circle jerks about how odd trans people or people with other issues are.

Even with all those factors and understanding the outcome of them, I still can't relate with the scapegoating and dismissive behaviour that seems prevalent on this site. It feels less and less like a "support" site everyday and more like a bunch of people trying to one-up each other and see how fast they can put each other down. I really only stay because I get enjoyment out of interacting with and seeing the posts of a select few members.



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11 Aug 2021, 11:01 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
If you hide that stuff, suck it up and deal with it was the only means of coping they've ever known, it's what was expected and normal for them, when they see other people starting to flout those rules the jealousy it triggers might be disturbing, so they don't feel like imitating or like they want those norms too, they just get angry that those weirdos are breaking the norms they've had to just accept their whole lives.

lol I notice a lot of the time, it's often GNC women who say "If this trans stuff had been around when I was 14 or 15, I probably would have considered myself trans" and I'm like..... hey I don't think you're making the point you think you're making, but you do you sis

I find this logic amusing, too. It gives me a good giggle whenever I see people think they're dismissing the existence of trans people by listing the reasons they'd be "fooled" into identifying as trans, if only they were just a bit younger. :lol:



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11 Aug 2021, 11:06 pm

HeroOfHyrule wrote:
Even with all those factors and understanding the outcome of them, I still can't relate with the scapegoating and dismissive behaviour that seems prevalent on this site. It feels less and less like a "support" site everyday and more like a bunch of people trying to one-up each other and see how fast they can put each other down. I really only stay because I get enjoyment out of interacting with and seeing the posts of a select few members.


It's sad and makes me wonder how other communities with high rates of mental illness keep their support communities from being too bogged down by people acting out against each other because they're in a bad mood while they're signed in.

I understand why PPR is the way it is, and demographics likely contributes to L&D, but I haven't really noticed too much caustic behaviour in the main couple of boards. To be fair, I don't spend a lot of time in the advice and help boards because I don't have much to offer. :oops:


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11 Aug 2021, 11:07 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
If you hide that stuff, suck it up and deal with it was the only means of coping they've ever known, it's what was expected and normal for them, when they see other people starting to flout those rules the jealousy it triggers might be disturbing, so they don't feel like imitating or like they want those norms too, they just get angry that those weirdos are breaking the norms they've had to just accept their whole lives.

lol I notice a lot of the time, it's often GNC women who say "If this trans stuff had been around when I was 14 or 15, I probably would have considered myself trans" and I'm like..... hey I don't think you're making the point you think you're making, but you do you sis


See, when I had that sort of realization I went 'well than wtf is stopping me from identifying the way that I've mostly accepted internally the whole damn time'.

At times I wonder how closely people pay attention to their own thoughts and words.


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"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


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11 Aug 2021, 11:19 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
Even with all those factors and understanding the outcome of them, I still can't relate with the scapegoating and dismissive behaviour that seems prevalent on this site. It feels less and less like a "support" site everyday and more like a bunch of people trying to one-up each other and see how fast they can put each other down. I really only stay because I get enjoyment out of interacting with and seeing the posts of a select few members.


It's sad and makes me wonder how other communities with high rates of mental illness keep their support communities from being too bogged down by people acting out against each other because they're in a bad mood while they're signed in.

I understand why PPR is the way it is, and demographics likely contributes to L&D, but I haven't really noticed too much caustic behaviour in the main couple of boards. To be fair, I don't spend a lot of time in the advice and help boards because I don't have much to offer. :oops:

It's not as bad in the other boards, but I think part of the issue is how little activity those boards get in comparison to PPR, L&D, and News. There's users that don't post anywhere else but those boards, and only come out of them when a specific topic (trans people, race, people with different support levels, etc.) get brought up in another board. Random and Off the Wall also get some traction, but that's often still just mindless banter instead of actual discussion or support.

I really don't mind if people want to mainly post in those boards, but it's obvious that they're probably the main thing keeping this forum alive, are the main source of activity, and that a fair amount of users don't have much interest in usefully discussing other topics or actually supporting each other anymore.



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11 Aug 2021, 11:24 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
At times I wonder how closely people pay attention to their own thoughts and words.

Don't humans usually pay more attention to what others think about them? And try to fit in as much as possible?

I wouldn't mind finding those who prefer to think for themselves and are allergic to groupthink :3