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THIS ! ! ^

That is something I've experienced too. I don't expect everyone to like me, and I'm not suggesting that I'm always right about everything despite my best intentions, but the amount of energy people have put into hating me has been pretty extreme. They've decided I'm evil, or conspiring, or out to get others even when I just do my normal posts. I'm so tired of being told I'm in a clique I just roll my eyes now. Yes, I post a lot and I have a strong personality. Yes, I have friends and I use WP for a majority of my life's communication since I'm mute and isolated irl. Yes, I have ADHD and impulse control issues, not to mention two strokes which caused clinically-documented blunting of my emotional nuance. None of that means I'm in a clique or that I don't care about 100% of the members here. I might have a bad day and show some sass but good grief, by the next day I've forgotten all about it and it's not the end of the world.

I don't bother with foes. I don't consider anyone a foe here. The only people who have really hurt me in PM were the groomer, and then the freak who harassed me and wrote porn stories about me in Adult. He assumed so many sock puppet accounts that he would write to me with 0 posts, meaning I wouldn't know which name to put on my Foe list in order to block him. He wrote exactly one PM per username, then got banned each time.

Verbal attacks can be ignored or reported. Yes, I agree. Does that mean I won't say something sarcastic back to them, now and then? Nope - because I will sometimes. I know I shouldn't but hey, ADHD works like that, and two can play at that game anyway.

Physical attacks - I throw a mean right hook, and I fight like a girl.

Last edited by IsabellaLinton on 03 Oct 2023, 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

My testimony was suspect, almost from the start.We were accused of conspiring together -- they were accused of offering me "favors" in exchange for my testimony, and I was accused of being p***y-whipped into testifying on their behalf. Of course, most of these accusations came from the people we testified against, but some of them were doubts expressed by outside parties.Yes, but not always directly, and more as an act of covert revenge than an overt defense.  Here is one I call "A Drunk, Exposed": A man was hired as my assistant.  He spent his breaks and his lunches getting drunk.  I felt sorry for him, overlooked his behavior, and covered for him.  He eventually accused me of treating him like crap.  In retaliation, I stopped covering for him.  Being passed out in his car was bad enough, but being passed out on the "Executive" bathroom floor with his trousers around his ankles on Customer Appreciation Day earned him a dismissal.  Of course, he said his dismissal was all my fault, just because -- as his immediate supervisor -- I was the one who went looking for him and found him en déshabillé.

Having received hand-to-hand combat training in the Navy helps for the more direct defenses, when needed.

By the way, I wasn't referring to any current members of WP in my last post. ^ ^
I'm talking years ago, primarily, up to spring of this year.

My thread isn't even about WP necessarily.

It's about my real life, and my experience self-advocating or dealing with conflict resolution, including stuff I had to testify in court just like you. Any display of emotion, determination, or wit seems to bode poorly for me when I'm being compared to other women, ND or not.

This is interesting, Isabella, because you said you were oblivious to society's different expectations of men and women and I am the one always pointing them out to you.

Do you mean you always knew about the different expectations or you have learned them from me/other people?

Sorry if I've misunderstood your point but it did surprise me.

I know the big picture theme, that women are "supposed to be" polite and nuturing. I know it mostly from reading classic literature in the 19th Century, but of course it's something that is still superimposed on society today. What I didn't know, or I still have trouble with, is identifying it when it's happening in my own life in real time. It's not embedded into my own conscience or socialization schema that I need to act that way myself. My mother never taught me to be quiet and meek as a gender norm, other than not liking it when I told that man to F Off because it ruined her social standing by proxy.

I never internalised the lesson or expectation that I was supposed to be meek. I have no memory of masking that way as a child or even a teen. I was quiet but it was because of mutism and repressed rage, rather than decorum. I certainly didn't think it was specific to my gender, and I didn't spend enough time with other girls to see how it worked for them. I never taught that to my daughter, either.

I'm so liberal-minded that I still assume that most people / women / men have changed a lot and that everyone can break gender norms or act differently and be more outspoken than in the past. In many respects I know we all can, and I know women have come a long way in terms of equality and positions of power. That's why I forget these gendered expectations are still a thing. I speak out when I need to. Sometimes it's articulate, controlled, and successful. Other times if I'm in meltdown mode or just really short on patience when someone provokes me, I'll rant and roll. I assume that's normal and that everyone else does it too, but the more I look around I realise it's not as normal as I thought it was, and that I'm being judged for it. Having the strokes made this even worse, because I lost the ability to fine-tune when my adrenaline is up.

After I speak up or rant, or even when I contribute something overly "intelligent" to a conversation, I notice that people back away. It stands to reason that they might be offended or upset if an argument happened. I get that. The issue I'm identifying is that I haven't had the metacognition piece, or the ability to deconstruct what's happened, until recently. I always thought people were just upset because of the conflict, or put off in an intellectual debate because they didn't know how to reply. It never occurred to me that my gender had anything to do with it, or that I was supposed to be self-censoring and acting the ways women did 100 years ago, to a certain extent. That's the thing I'm just learning now. Even if people admire me for my words, they likely don't find it feminine, and it subconsciously pushes them away.

That part is really surprising to me. You're right that you did bring a lot of this to my attention. I didn't realise it was applicable in today's society, or more importantly, that it applied to my own life.

Yes I think things dawn on us as we get older, and probably later than NTs realise them. A lot of what I've learned is from other people, especially women, who summarise things online.

I've long been aware however that people don't treat me the same way they treat men. My first clue was at work meetings. The meeting leaders would ask a question, I'd give an idea about the answer, out loud. But no one heard it, or they ignored it. Then two minutes later, a man would give the same idea out loud, and he'd be applauded or praised.

So, did he overhear my idea and steal it? Or somehow come up with the same idea himself at the same moment? I think the first reason is more likely.

And this has happened many times in many different workplaces and settings, so it dawned on me that the different men were listened to and taken more seriously because they were men.

A gay male friend told me he has noticed this in meetings too- where a woman gives an idea, no one listens, but then a man gives the same idea and is praised. So my gay friend agreed with me that the man was taken more seriously.

And like you (Isabella), if I come up with an intelligent comment, it tends to make people shy away rather than be interested. In my village, I am nicknamed 'The Oracle' or 'Professor' because I'm intelligent. It's like being at school again!

The stupid thing is, it started when someone asked me when school sports day would be held. I'd noted it down on my phone calendar so I looked it up and told them, and everyone laughed because 'she knows everything.' All I did was note down an important date on my phone calendar FFS. What's unusual about doing that? It's common sense.

Last edited by KitLily on 03 Oct 2023, 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

It really depends on the persons involved in judging women.

Some men are socially conservative and judge women for being outspoken, political and/or sarcastic in their communication.

Other men simply don't like sarcastic or negative people or people who share a lot of their own personal emotions, regardless of gender, and when that attitude is directed at women and it is noticed, it may be interpreted as misogynistic, even when it is not.

Some people are jealous of others who can communicate better than them, even if that communication is demonstrated via ranting. And such jealousy can lead to resentment. This may or may not be dependent on gender.

Just a few thoughts.

YES!!

I’ve experienced this a lot, especially in my former church and family. It’s extremely frustrating.

If I say something in my family, it’ll often be dismissed or ignored. If my brother says the same thing, he’ll be praised and taken seriously. Some of this is related to me being the black sheep of the family, but I think there’s a gender component, too. People in my culture think that women are illogical and emotion-based and men are logical and rational. Women need men to guide them. It’s extremely irritating because nothing I say or do will change their misogynistic beliefs.

They won’t even acknowledge some of the idiotic stuff that the men have done in my family. I don’t care if my uncle is good at chess. Buying an expensive, new truck that was not needed when they can barely afford food and are living off of rice and homemade bread was the height of stupidity.

Ah we've experienced the same thing! I'm sorry but also glad you know what I mean. Some people just don't believe this happens. But I've heard of it happening a lot in many cultures and locations.

About the truck, OMG, my father in law did that. I think they sold their house and had a lot of money left over, he could have taken his wife on a lovely holiday, she needed a break, but he bought a new car for himself instead. She didn't drive so it was no use to her. Then he kept trading it in for another brand new car over and over again. The money from the house was for both of them, not just as a present for him. She had brought up 4 children and run the home while he worked in jobs. I think they were equal partners so why not share the money with a treat for both of them?

^That did annoy me at the time.

It happens a lot, I think, but it’s often too subtle to pick up on. Sometimes we make excuses for people until the pattern becomes too obvious to be ignored.

The truck wasn’t even for work or anything like that. He was physically disabled. They didn’t own a farm or a lot of land. It was simply a toy for himself. An affordable family car would’ve been much better for…the family.

My aunt was really upset about his selfishness, but as a submissive wife, she had no choice but to go along with it.

I can’t stand that guy. He’s a domineering jerk.

I'm convinced that the opposite is true (at least for me). I go off the rails without the guiding force of a female mind in close proximity.

Yes that's it, isn't it! A pattern.

I've noticed often that if I say to someone 'that person or people did XYZ', they make an excuse 'perhaps they were having a bad day' 'perhaps they were tired/hungry/stressed etc.'

But if that person or people keep doing the same thing over and over, it is a pattern and shows their motivation and attitude.

Well, thanks for knowing what I'm talking about and having such a nice discussion, Twilight!

And that truck! OMG. What a selfish thing for that uncle to do.

I think my husband would agree. Even our 17 year old daughter sometimes has to talk sense into him!

I don’t think that women need men to guide them. It was just something that I grew up with. I was always too critically minded and headstrong to buy it, though. As a matter of fact, it pissed me off even as a young kid.

Thank you too!

I've had pushback when making jokes. Just the typical sexist nonsense. 'This is why women aren't funny'. 'Woman moment'. Unfortunately it's a double whammy because if you respond to this then apparently you're being overly sensitive.

Whilst I realise that not every joke I tell is going to land, I'd rather 'wow you are terrible' than 'wow women are terrible'.

It sort of... makes me feel like I'm failing as a woman? That I'm supposed to be this ideal that redeems womanhood in their eyes but that's quite silly. Let me be bad at things in peace.