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If you swear to God and it's a lie, do you go to Hell?

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Honey69
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22 May 2024, 11:15 am

TheNet wrote:
Is it true that if you swear something to God and it's not true that you automatically go to Hell no matter what? I have heard people say that this is the case.


What you are thinking about comes from Matthew 12 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

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Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


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DuckHairback
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22 May 2024, 11:25 am

What about if it was for His own good? What if you'd planned a surprise party and He was getting suss and you had to tell a lie to deflect? So when you all shout SURPRISE! He really wouldn't be expecting it. He'd forgive that, surely?


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lostonearth35
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22 May 2024, 11:38 am

When I was a kid I went to a religious school, and one of the things I remember the teacher telling us is that "anyone who says I love god, but hates his brother is a liar". And yet you see religious homophobes going around clearly saying that they and god hate lgbt people.

Apparently, Heaven must be a very empty. lonely place while Hell is packed like sardines.



ToughDiamond
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22 May 2024, 1:06 pm

DuckHairback wrote:
What about if it was for His own good? What if you'd planned a surprise party and He was getting suss and you had to tell a lie to deflect? So when you all shout SURPRISE! He really wouldn't be expecting it. He'd forgive that, surely?

You'd have other options - "upon my honour," "upon my life," "I promise you," "I swear," etc., without invoking the deity. If I'd gone and done it, and was interrogated about it after death, I'd tell God that I'd only said it figuratively. Anyway I don't like surprises like that (sudden presence of loads of noisy people staring at me) and wouldn't inflict such a thing on anybody, so I'm safe.

I wonder what happened to all those people who got forced to take a Christian oath in a court of law, before they changed it? I mean, who can reasonably be expected to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? If I try to tell the whole truth, people shut me down before I'm finished. I'm quite good at not lying but most people aren't.



angelsonthemoon
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22 May 2024, 10:16 pm

Imagine you have someone whose good far outweighed their bad. Then, before dying, they swear to God and lie. Would it be reasonable for them to go to hell?

This type of thinking makes God seem petty. It's true that people may forget the good we've done and only focus on our last bad thing. God is supposed to have a long memory though.



funeralxempire
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22 May 2024, 10:27 pm

angelsonthemoon wrote:
Imagine you have someone whose good far outweighed their bad. Then, before dying, they swear to God and lie. Would it be reasonable for them to go to hell?

This type of thinking makes God seem petty. It's true that people may forget the good we've done and only focus on our last bad thing. God is supposed to have a long memory though.


A lot of Protestants embrace the notion that salvation is through faith alone and that deeds are irrelevant.


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22 May 2024, 11:02 pm

but if a person converted on their deathbed after a lifetime of doing bad and hurtful deeds, it offends any sense of fairness, that their immortal soul would be treated at the same level of goodness, as that of a saint who died after a long life of selfless service to humanity.



funeralxempire
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22 May 2024, 11:12 pm

auntblabby wrote:
but if a person converted on their deathbed after a lifetime of doing bad and hurtful deeds, it offends any sense of fairness, that their immortal soul would be treated at the same level of goodness, as that of a saint who died after a long life of selfless service to humanity.


Are you familiar with the Parable of the Workers?

Mathew 20:1-16 wrote:
20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”


I'd say the bible is quite clear that what you're outraged by is actually fair, from a biblical perspective. You're basically agreeing with the outraged workers who are being used to illustrate what is viewed as wrong, from a biblical perspective.


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23 May 2024, 12:06 am

^
AuntBlabby is right IMO.



funeralxempire
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23 May 2024, 12:12 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
^
AuntBlabby is right IMO.


Don't get me wrong, I also agree with Blabby.

That said, the bible is very clear that it does not agree with him.


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"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


auntblabby
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23 May 2024, 12:15 am

a very imperfect document of sketchy history written many decades after the fact, king james' theologians tinkered yet on top of the paucity of real information from back in the day.



ToughDiamond
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23 May 2024, 12:20 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
^
AuntBlabby is right IMO.


Don't get me wrong, I also agree with Blabby.

That said, the bible is very clear that it does not agree with him.

OK 8)



funeralxempire
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23 May 2024, 12:21 am

auntblabby wrote:
a very imperfect document of sketchy history written many decades after the fact, king james' theologians tinkered yet on top of the paucity of real information from back in the day.


As an atheist it should be clear I don't view the bible as any sort of authority on anything.

That doesn't mean it doesn't say what it clearly and undeniably says however, unless you're alleging that particular verse has been altered at some point, and if that's the allegation being made evidence please.

If that allegation isn't being made, let's agree that the bible isn't a very good source for morality and move on.


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auntblabby
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23 May 2024, 1:06 am

comedian steve allen [an intellectual sort] wrote two scholarly tomes detailing all the things in the bible for which there was no backing information available anywhere, and/or bad translations of existing original material.



funeralxempire
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23 May 2024, 1:11 am

auntblabby wrote:
comedian steve allen [an intellectual sort] wrote two scholarly tomes detailing all the things in the bible for which there was no backing information available anywhere, and/or bad translations of existing original material.


Was the Parable of the Workers included? :scratch:


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"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


ToughDiamond
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23 May 2024, 1:24 am

auntblabby wrote:
comedian steve allen [an intellectual sort] wrote two scholarly tomes detailing all the things in the bible for which there was no backing information available anywhere, and/or bad translations of existing original material.

Might be a good read. The only things about Jesus that are generally agreed on by scholars as externally verified (based on corroborating evidence outside of scripture) are that he was baptised by John the Baptist and that he was crucified.

I rather like the theory that the Garden Of Eden story is a relic of oral history about the Neolithic Revolution, told poetically as the story of a couple who represent the time of the hunter-gatherers. Eating from the Tree Of Knowledge was the discovery of farming, from which sprang most of the known evils that have plagued the human race ever since, though it must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Cain and Abel may have personified animal husbandry and horticulture. It's nice to think that the Old Testament writers might not have just cynically made up the whole book but were genuinely passing on ancestral memories with at least a degree of good faith.