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HAMAS continue to taunt families of victims

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funeralxempire
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10 Sep 2024, 12:50 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Palestinians need to learn to live with their neighbors, fighting them will be a battle they will never win.


Translation: Israel has stolen from them fair and square, why can't they just accept it?


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10 Sep 2024, 2:37 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I think you're pointing the finger at the wrong party. The partition that was initially offered was unfair, why should 56% of the land go to less than a third of the people affected?

Essentially a theft of Palestinian land was offered and since then the world has stood by and allowed further thefts to be imposed. How are the Palestinians in the wrong for not agreeing to be stolen from? :scratch:


Because most of that land was less densely populated and most of the Palestinians at the time didn't live there? It was populated mostly by the jewish population that became the Israelis. The UN partition plan was actually based on the population that lived there at the time.



funeralxempire
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10 Sep 2024, 4:57 pm

Jono wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think you're pointing the finger at the wrong party. The partition that was initially offered was unfair, why should 56% of the land go to less than a third of the people affected?

Essentially a theft of Palestinian land was offered and since then the world has stood by and allowed further thefts to be imposed. How are the Palestinians in the wrong for not agreeing to be stolen from? :scratch:


Because most of that land was less densely populated and most of the Palestinians at the time didn't live there? It was populated mostly by the jewish population that became the Israelis. The UN partition plan was actually based on the population that lived there at the time.


The underlined is objectively false. The goal of giving much more land to the Jewish state was to ensure they had land for settlers, it wasn't based on the population that lived there currently.

Jewish settlers weren't widely distributed through out the Palestinian countryside, yet huge swaths of the countryside were included in the proposed Jewish state's borders.

I'd love to see what you're basing your claims on because they're in conflict with literally every source I've ever seen.


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10 Sep 2024, 5:39 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
they live streamed the murders to the victims families.


Yes, and this was celebrated in Gaza. For those defending the celebration as being only a tiny minority, I mean how does anybody know? did they take a poll? What I saw was civilians in Gaza on the street shouting and cheering as the body of a naked German woman was paraded through the street. I have seen this before, when Israelis take civilian casualties, I see Palestinian women dancing in old videos. Oct 7 was also celebrated as "justice" among overseas pro-Palestinian groups.

So the livestreaming had two goals, one was to obviously taunt the victims families and send a message that HAMAS can infliltrate Israel's border when they want to purposely inflict fear. Secondly a call to pro-Palestinians who saw this as a victory.

I can't think of a single country in the world that would not respond like Israel. Especially since HAMAS hold 95 more civilian hostages who likely will be subject to more terror and mean't for Israelis to re-live Oct 7 for possibly years to come. All lives matter.



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10 Sep 2024, 5:46 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Palestinians need to learn to live with their neighbors, fighting them will be a battle they will never win.


Translation: Israel has stolen from them fair and square, why can't they just accept it?


Israel doesn't exactly have a monopoly on stolen land do they FE. You can't use time as guide to decide when to forgive and forget for some colonial powers (like the country you live) and then draw a line the sand and say "oh Israelis bad but Canadians are ok because we conducted genocide x number of years ago so there's an arbitrary statute of limitations. Palestinians need to go to the negotiating table and use leverage that does involve violence, Seeing Palestinian women celebrate the deaths of women and children is not a good look.



funeralxempire
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10 Sep 2024, 6:06 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Palestinians need to learn to live with their neighbors, fighting them will be a battle they will never win.


Translation: Israel has stolen from them fair and square, why can't they just accept it?


Israel doesn't exactly have a monopoly on stolen land do they FE. You can't use time as guide to decide when to forgive and forget for some colonial powers (like the country you live) and then draw a line the sand and say "oh Israelis bad but Canadians are ok because we conducted genocide x number of years ago so there's an arbitrary statute of limitations. Palestinians need to go to the negotiating table and use leverage that does involve violence, Seeing Palestinian women celebrate the deaths of women and children is not a good look.


This is a dishonest attempt at whataboutism.

You act like I condone Canada's historic wrong-doings and then use that as a cudgel to insist I should also condone Israel's ongoing wrong-doings. You're literally using what was done to my ancestors as an excuse for what Israel is doing right now instead of even considering that my sympathy towards the Palestinians is at least somewhat informed by the similarities between the two situations.

I don't condone Canada's historic wrong-doings and I believe Canada needs to address those problems to the best of it's ability.

Likewise Israel needs to be held accountable for it's ongoing genocidal actions.

And you need to come up with arguments that rely on more than whataboutism and poor attempts at emotional manipulation because it really doesn't reflect well on your person or your intellect.


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10 Sep 2024, 6:17 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
And you need to come up with arguments that rely on more than whataboutism and poor attempts at emotional manipulation because it really doesn't reflect well on your person or your intellect.


If other "oppressed minorities" can negotiate using words and not knives and bullets then why have Palestinians continually resorted to violence? answer: because they have been aided and abetted by other powers. I am old enough to remember the IRA used violence against civilians to kick the British out of Ireland, US Irish were funding their purchase of weapons. After decades they were forced back to the negotiation table. the Palestinians need to stop entertaining terror organisations like the PLO and HAMAS who have an endless pipeline to funds to keep Israel under a state of war.



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10 Sep 2024, 6:26 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
And you need to come up with arguments that rely on more than whataboutism and poor attempts at emotional manipulation because it really doesn't reflect well on your person or your intellect.


If other "oppressed minorities" can negotiate using words and not knives and bullets then why have Palestinians continually resorted to violence? answer: because they have been aided and abetted by other powers. I am old enough to remember the IRA used violence against civilians to kick the British out of Ireland, US Irish were funding their purchase of weapons. After decades they were forced back to the negotiation table. the Palestinians need to stop entertaining terror organisations like the PLO and HAMAS who have an endless pipeline to funds to keep Israel under a state of war.


Do you really think Israel treats non-violent protesters any less brutally? Do you really think Israel only vanishes people to be raped and tortured for violent opposition?

Israel creates circumstances where violence is perfectly justified and then uses the violence that results from their actions as proof that their theft and oppression is justified and you just fall for it without an ounce of critical thought.

I can't blame Palestinians for violence anymore than I'd blame Uyghurs for violence against the PRC.


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10 Sep 2024, 6:51 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I can't blame Palestinians for violence anymore than I'd blame Uyghurs for violence against the PRC.


It can't end well for them (Palestinians) if they choose violence. But you know that right?

By the way Israel allows NGOs into Gaza, China seems to have the privilege of an "iron curtain" where not a single journalist can see what they are currently doing,



funeralxempire
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10 Sep 2024, 8:54 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I can't blame Palestinians for violence anymore than I'd blame Uyghurs for violence against the PRC.


It can't end well for them (Palestinians) if they choose violence. But you know that right?

By the way Israel allows NGOs into Gaza, China seems to have the privilege of an "iron curtain" where not a single journalist can see what they are currently doing,


Israel might allow them, but that doesn't mean Israel won't also murder them once they're there and then insist they're actually Hamas.

Ultimately Israel is the aggressor and has always been the aggressor. No amount of mental gymnastics you'll engage it will alter that basic fact. If peace is the desired outcome the world needs to treat Israel as the aggressor rather than accepting their narrative that they're actually the victim.

If genocide is an acceptable outcome the world should keep doing exactly what it's doing and Israel will keep doing what it's been doing since 1947.


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11 Sep 2024, 1:46 am

If Israel are committing genocide then they are doing an awful job. the actual population of Palestinians has actually doubled since 1948. the standard of living of Palestinians living in Israel is higher than for other Arab neighbours. Sorry, dispossession of land, yes, but I don't buy the genocide claim.



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11 Sep 2024, 4:34 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Jono wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think you're pointing the finger at the wrong party. The partition that was initially offered was unfair, why should 56% of the land go to less than a third of the people affected?

Essentially a theft of Palestinian land was offered and since then the world has stood by and allowed further thefts to be imposed. How are the Palestinians in the wrong for not agreeing to be stolen from? :scratch:


Because most of that land was less densely populated and most of the Palestinians at the time didn't live there? It was populated mostly by the jewish population that became the Israelis. The UN partition plan was actually based on the population that lived there at the time.


The underlined is objectively false. The goal of giving much more land to the Jewish state was to ensure they had land for settlers, it wasn't based on the population that lived there currently.

Jewish settlers weren't widely distributed through out the Palestinian countryside, yet huge swaths of the countryside were included in the proposed Jewish state's borders.

I'd love to see what you're basing your claims on because they're in conflict with literally every source I've ever seen.


That underlined statement does not say anything about the jewish settlers being widely distributed in those areas. You are attacking a straw man. I said that those areas were less densely populated and most Palestinians did not live there, i.e. there were large areas of land there that were uninhabited and at the time, it was also unsuitable for agriculture. (No, this does not mean that there were no Palestinians there either, just in case you decide show sources that were some Palestinian villages, I'm not saying there weren't.) Also more jewish settlements were in those areas than in the areas that would have become Palestine in the original partition plan.

The Palestinians who still lived in those areas were supposed to become Israeli citizens in the original UN resolution (there was never any plan for ethnic cleansing like the Nakba at the UN, the Israeli military did that unilaterally). What they complained about was that they'd be in the minority in that territory due to how the land was divided up in the original partition plan.



Last edited by Jono on 11 Sep 2024, 4:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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11 Sep 2024, 4:35 am

cyberdad wrote:
Palestinians need to go to the negotiating table and use leverage that does involve violence,
If I might inject a point of order: while all of Hamas is AFAIK Palestinian, not all Palestinians are Hamas.
You're degrading your own stance by conflating the two.


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11 Sep 2024, 4:41 am

cyberdad wrote:
Hamas has taunted the grieving families of the six hostages found slain in a Gaza tunnel by releasing haunting new footage of the victims.

The hostages, looking gaunt and exhausted, identify themselves for the camera before the footage transitions to still frames.

In a sick twist, the terrorist propaganda video also threatens to release the captives’ “last messages” in a matter of hours.

“Hours & We will release their last statements,” the video text said in Hebrew, English and Arabic. It’s believed the hostages were shot at close range multiple times a few days before their bodies were found in a tunnel beneath the southern Gaza city of Rafah on Saturday night. . .
It is news like this that explains why I have no love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.



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11 Sep 2024, 1:53 pm

To quote Michael Brooks: "It’s not a complex issue. That’s the big thing. It’s super simple. There’s one group that has enormous power. It’s the most powerful country in the Middle East. It’s backed by the United States. It acts on another population of people with total impunity and it’s never held accountable for anything."


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11 Sep 2024, 4:15 pm

Cornflake wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Palestinians need to go to the negotiating table and use leverage that does involve violence,
If I might inject a point of order: while all of Hamas is AFAIK Palestinian, not all Palestinians are Hamas.
You're degrading your own stance by conflating the two.


I am happy for you, Cornflake, to edit my post to say "those elected to represent the Palestinian people need to use leverage that don't involve violence".