ShoeOnHead: "Why Are Men Moving Right?” | The Man Problem

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Honey69
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02 Dec 2024, 9:03 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
I don't quite know what import tariffs will do, but I gather some economists have said that protectionism tends to backfire, and I expect ornery folks will be the main casualties if they do.


You may have heard of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930:

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sm ... ff-act.asp

Quote:

-The Smoot-Hawley Act was created to protect U.S. farmers and other industries from foreign competitors.

-The Smoot-Hawley Act increased tariffs on foreign imports to the U.S. by about 20%; at least 25 countries responded by increasing their own tariffs on American goods.

-Global trade plummeted, contributing to the ill effects of the Great Depression.

-Prior to signing the Act, more than 1,000 economists urged President Hoover to veto it....

...As the Nobel Prize-winning M.I.T. economist Paul A. Samuelson noted in his widely used textbook "Economics": "Cynics were delighted at the spectacle of a country trying to collect debts from abroad and at the same time shutting out the import goods that could alone have provided the payment for those debts." ...

...The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act did not cause the Great Depression; however, it worsened conditions during that time. The Act increased tariffs, which further stressed struggling nations—including those in debt to the U.S.—and caused other nations to retaliate by imposing their own tariffs....

...Investors feared that the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act would cause prices to fall. Their fears became reality, prompting many to sell shares in record-breaking numbers....

...European nations greatly disfavored the Hawley Smoot Tariff. The Hawley Smoot Tariff prompted these countries to impose their own tariffs on foreign goods, especially those from the United States. These retaliation tariffs crippled international trade and worsened conditions during the Great Depression....



From Reagan through Obama, both Republican and Democratic presidents promoted free trade. One result was that we were blessed with very low inflation, for a very long time.


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Dox47
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02 Dec 2024, 9:04 pm

Honey69 wrote:
Why?


Because I enjoy punishing people who insult my intelligence, and Trump is a fantastic instrument with which to do it. To be fair, I had plenty of positive reasons to vote for him, the judges he'll appoint and the Democratic policies he'll block in particular, but these sorts of condescending takes make the choice much less reluctant.


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Honey69
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02 Dec 2024, 9:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Because I enjoy punishing people who insult my intelligence,


Why is that?


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Dox47
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02 Dec 2024, 9:15 pm

Honey69 wrote:
Why is that?


Why do I not like being condescended to?


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techstepgenr8tion
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02 Dec 2024, 9:49 pm

Aren't men primarily judged on what jobs they have, how much money they make, and how prestigious what they do is? None of that operates in economies with heavy social democrat tax and spend component. Leftward generally isn't toward free market and ability to achieve, rather it's about huge bureaucracies and business fees and taxes choking out small businesses. If a guy can't feel useful in a way that reflects meaningful achievement he's not going to feel great about himself. I think they're getting that they can't enjoy life unless we're in growth mode.


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Honey69
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02 Dec 2024, 9:50 pm

To get back to the discussion concerning trade, people ought to remember the last time Trump started a trade war with China, and how disastrous it was.

https://gjia.georgetown.edu/2022/10/26/ ... ean-trade/

Quote:

...The US-China trade war of 2018-2020 had a significant impact on the agricultural products of both countries and the rest of the world. In addition to the loss of billions suffered by American farmers and higher food prices in China, the trade war has altered production and trade structure of soybean and other agricultural products....

The US tariffs aimed to protect American companies, but the outcomes were not positive as expected. US exports are estimated to have declined by $32 billion, costing industries some $2.4 billion per month in lost exports. As a result, companies had to pay lower profit margins, cut wages and jobs, and increase prices.

Regarding agricultural products, US exports dropped by $27-$30 billion between mid-2018 and the end of 2019. The main commodities affected were soybean, sorghum and pork. Farmers lost a very profitable market in China calculated at $24 billion. During the 115th and 116th Congressional Hearings in 2018 and 2019 respectively, American soybean farmers testified to rising debts, increased costs of production and declining farm incomes in the industry. In July 2019, a representative in the Committee on Small Business US Congressional Hearing discussed how the number of bankruptcies filed by farmers in 2018 was the highest in over a decade.....



The federal government ultimately covered the losses to soybean growers.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... aepp.13045

Quote:

The USDA provided roughly $23.5 billion in Market Facilitation Program payments to compensate farmers for market losses due to retaliatory tariffs imposed by China and other countries.



Even Donald Trump, who claims to have graduated top-in-the-class from a very prestigious university, ought to have learned something from this.

But, no. He is still insisting that exporters will eat the cost of the tariffs, and that US consumers won't be paying any extra for imported goods. And, his not-very-bright followers believe him. :roll:

The next few years are going to be a yuge mess, once again.


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02 Dec 2024, 9:51 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Thanks. I see they shot him.


Someone did.


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Dox47
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02 Dec 2024, 10:00 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Aren't men primarily judged on what jobs they have, how much money they make, and how prestigious what they do is? None of that operates in economies with heavy social democrat tax and spend component. Leftward generally isn't toward free market and ability to achieve, rather it's about huge bureaucracies and business fees and taxes choking out small businesses. If a guy can't feel useful in a way that reflects meaningful achievement he's not going to feel great about himself. I think they're getting that they can't enjoy life unless we're in growth mode.


Stigmatizing many male pastimes and styles of conduct certainly hasn't helped either.


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Honey69
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02 Dec 2024, 10:34 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Aren't men primarily judged on what jobs they have, how much money they make, and how prestigious what they do is?


And women are judged primarily on their looks. It used to be that way. A lot of society has moved on. Women are largely beating the pants off of men, both academically and professionally. Some men feel threatened. Time to move on, and be less concerned about how one is judged. As Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you." We're better off just not judging each other.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
None of that operates in economies with heavy social democrat tax and spend component.


Jealousies still exist.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Leftward generally isn't toward free market and ability to achieve, rather it's about huge bureaucracies and business fees and taxes choking out small businesses.


Neither is "rightward." Walmart has led to the decline of downtown areas. Family farms have largely disappeared, with most of our food grown on factory farms.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If a guy can't feel useful in a way that reflects meaningful achievement he's not going to feel great about himself.


It may be a mistake to attach too much of one's self to one's meaningful achievements.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think they're getting that they can't enjoy life unless we're in growth mode.


Why are we here, if not to enjoy all that life has to offer?


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02 Dec 2024, 11:27 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
Thanks. I see they shot him.


Someone did.

I gather it was Carl Weiss. Not sure exactly what he had against him.



Dox47
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02 Dec 2024, 11:32 pm

Honey69 wrote:
Women are largely beating the pants off of men, both academically and professionally.


So we can stop giving them preferential treatment in admissions and employment?


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ToughDiamond
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02 Dec 2024, 11:33 pm

Honey69 wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
I don't quite know what import tariffs will do, but I gather some economists have said that protectionism tends to backfire, and I expect ornery folks will be the main casualties if they do.


You may have heard of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930:

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sm ... ff-act.asp

Quote:

-The Smoot-Hawley Act was created to protect U.S. farmers and other industries from foreign competitors.

-The Smoot-Hawley Act increased tariffs on foreign imports to the U.S. by about 20%; at least 25 countries responded by increasing their own tariffs on American goods.

-Global trade plummeted, contributing to the ill effects of the Great Depression.

-Prior to signing the Act, more than 1,000 economists urged President Hoover to veto it....

...As the Nobel Prize-winning M.I.T. economist Paul A. Samuelson noted in his widely used textbook "Economics": "Cynics were delighted at the spectacle of a country trying to collect debts from abroad and at the same time shutting out the import goods that could alone have provided the payment for those debts." ...

...The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act did not cause the Great Depression; however, it worsened conditions during that time. The Act increased tariffs, which further stressed struggling nations—including those in debt to the U.S.—and caused other nations to retaliate by imposing their own tariffs....

...Investors feared that the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act would cause prices to fall. Their fears became reality, prompting many to sell shares in record-breaking numbers....

...European nations greatly disfavored the Hawley Smoot Tariff. The Hawley Smoot Tariff prompted these countries to impose their own tariffs on foreign goods, especially those from the United States. These retaliation tariffs crippled international trade and worsened conditions during the Great Depression....



From Reagan through Obama, both Republican and Democratic presidents promoted free trade. One result was that we were blessed with very low inflation, for a very long time.

No I didn't know that. But I agree that import tariffs would be passed onto American consumers, and that other countries would likely introduce their own tariffs. Can't see a lot of good coming out of it.



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Dec 2024, 8:01 am

Honey69 wrote:
And women are judged primarily on their looks. It used to be that way. A lot of society has moved on. Women are largely beating the pants off of men, both academically and professionally. Some men feel threatened. Time to move on, and be less concerned about how one is judged. As Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you." We're better off just not judging each other.

In this case getting judged also means getting your genes culled from the future or at least not having anyone whose up to code.

I also don't know that they're 'beating the pants off of men'. You can't 'beat the pants' off of someone with affirmative action. Serena Williams admitted that she couldn't beat any of the top 100 male tennis players (she's incredibly talented and this wasn't a dig at herself), mainly as a nod that women's sports need to exist for women to have a competitive playing field with one another. Women are also having a moral crisis right now where - given the chance to behave like piglets - are showing what that looks like on the female side of the tree. I think guys are mostly figuring that they need to work in trades because they'll get treated like crap in the corporate world.

Honey69 wrote:
Neither is "rightward." Walmart has led to the decline of downtown areas. Family farms have largely disappeared, with most of our food grown on factory farms.

I'd separate two distinct concerns out of this:

1) Neocons and neolibs had a lot to do with the oursourcing, that's not the kind of conservatism that we're going toward right now, especially not with tariffs (economists are right to point out that with all other things equal tariffs are a bad idea - they're more of a 'zero-sum game' tool where if the rest of the world is playing zero-sum there's some reason to at least threaten tariffs).

2) The neoliberal / neoconservative era was all about maximizing global trade and in hopes that China could still be democratized by becoming the 'factory of the world' which hasn't exactly happened (although with the way the people are pushing it could be in the next decade or so). That means we will have more on-shoring away from China, things won't be quite as cheap but we'll have redundancies in areas that matter.

Honey69 wrote:
It may be a mistake to attach too much of one's self to one's meaningful achievements.

That's also the complete antithesis to how neurotypicals think. For them the gene war of life's the only thing that matters - it tells you who your better than and whose better than you, and men are made or broken by the either the status other men place on them or their lack of status from other men. If you don't have status you're not a person and you won't be treated like one until you go out and get status.


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Honey69
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03 Dec 2024, 11:10 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I also don't know that they're 'beating the pants off of men'. You can't 'beat the pants' off of someone with affirmative action. Serena Williams admitted that she couldn't beat any of the top 100 male tennis players (she's incredibly talented and this wasn't a dig at herself), mainly as a nod that women's sports need to exist for women to have a competitive playing field with one another. Women are also having a moral crisis right now where - given the chance to behave like piglets - are showing what that looks like on the female side of the tree. I think guys are mostly figuring that they need to work in trades because they'll get treated like crap in the corporate world.


Okay. Apart from sports, and the military,

https://spartanshield.org/42176/feature ... rls-world/

Quote:

Women now account for 50.7% of the college-educated labor force, having surpassed men as of 2023...companies with female leaders demonstrate higher success rates in organization and financial performance. Regarding college acceptances throughout the country, women have been proven to have higher acceptance rates compared to their male counterparts.

Women are statistically outperforming men in various categories...



Not much of an article, I know. Lots of repetition, but anyway, it illustrates my point--women are surpassing men, academically and professionally. For men, trades is probably the way to go. A licensed plumber or electrician can make a decent income.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

1) Neocons and neolibs had a lot to do with the oursourcing, that's not the kind of conservatism that we're going toward right now, especially not with tariffs (economists are right to point out that with all other things equal tariffs are a bad idea - they're more of a 'zero-sum game' tool where if the rest of the world is playing zero-sum there's some reason to at least threaten tariffs).



If another country imposes tariffs on our goods, we would still be better off not imposing tariffs on their goods. We get to enjoy their stuff, at low prices.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

2) The neoliberal / neoconservative era was all about maximizing global trade and in hopes that China could still be democratized by becoming the 'factory of the world' which hasn't exactly happened (although with the way the people are pushing it could be in the next decade or so).



Democracy may be coming to an end in the USA as well. Democracies did develop in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. Democracy might come to China eventually, using Taiwan as a model. Taiwan and South Korea were dictatorships until somewhat recently.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That means we will have more on-shoring away from China, things won't be quite as cheap but we'll have redundancies in areas that matter.



Japan used to be regarded as a source of cheap, shoddy merchandise. Now, Japan produces the best cars and electronics in the world.

Things made in China used to be cheap and of poor quality. Things made in China are still cheap, but the quality has improved dramatically.

A lot of the labor-intensive jobs relocated from Japan to China, and are now moving to other countries where labor costs are lower, including African countries.

It wouldn't make sense to bring those types of manufacturing jobs back to the United States.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That's also the complete antithesis to how neurotypicals think. For them the gene war of life's the only thing that matters - it tells you who your better than and whose better than you, and men are made or broken by the either the status other men place on them or their lack of status from other men. If you don't have status you're not a person and you won't be treated like one until you go out and get status.


I know that a lot of people think that way. Christians have a phrase about being "in the world, but not of the world." It is an approach worthy of consideration.


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03 Dec 2024, 11:21 am

I thought I had a decent paying job but after I retired they had it posted for a year and couldn't hire anyone. Then they reduced the job requirements and still couldn't get anyone after six months! Oh well, at least I have plenty saved for my retirement.

I have a car that was made in Japan that I bought a decade ago.

Being retired allows me to spend more time in the kitchen.
Instead of turkey I had steak and lobster over the long Holiday weekend!



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03 Dec 2024, 6:01 pm

Regarding the intelligence of Trump supporters, there is this paper from Sage Journals, "Attitudes Toward Presidential Candidates in the 2012 and 2016 American Elections: Cognitive Ability and Support for Trump", published in 2018:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10 ... 0618800494

The Abstract wrote:

Using data from the American National Election Studies, we investigated the relationship between cognitive ability and attitudes toward and actual voting for presidential candidates in the 2012 and 2016 U.S. presidential elections (i.e., Romney, Obama, Trump, and Clinton). Isolating this relationship from competing relationships, results showed that verbal ability was a significant negative predictor of support and voting for Trump (but not Romney) and a positive predictor of support and voting for Obama and Clinton. By comparing within and across the election years, our analyses revealed the nature of support for Trump, including that support for Trump was better predicted by lower verbal ability than education or income. In general, these results suggest that the 2016 U.S. presidential election had less to do with party affiliation, income, or education and more to do with basic cognitive ability.



There is some support to the theory that Trump's supporters have diminished cognitive ability.

Jordan Klepper interviewed the loyalists at a large number of Trump rallies over the years, and very few of the faithful seemed particularly intelligent.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzLOWF1ZkrI


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