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TwilightPrincess
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26 Mar 2025, 1:46 pm

Honey69 wrote:
I think that the neurotypicals have a big advantage over us in being able to understand and interpret nonverbal cues. Some of the PUA stuff might be helpful to some of us, in spelling things out.
PUA stuff is much more likely to be harmful than helpful because it perpetuates harmful stereotypes, misinformation, and toxic, manipulative behavior, so it should be avoided for those reasons. There’s much more useful information out there, including from women.


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Honey69
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26 Mar 2025, 1:53 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
I think that the neurotypicals have a big advantage over us in being able to understand and interpret nonverbal cues. Some of the PUA stuff might be helpful to some of us, in spelling things out.
PUA stuff is much more likely to be harmful than helpful because it perpetuates harmful stereotypes, misinformation, and toxic, manipulative behavior, so it should be avoided for those reasons. There’s much more useful information out there, including from women.


Well, maybe if we don't necessarily act upon it. At least not to the most abhorrent conclusions. Maybe just to have some idea, like "this woman is doing this--she might be signaling interest", or "that woman is doing that, which might mean that I had better not approach."


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TwilightPrincess
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26 Mar 2025, 2:02 pm

But they are so often wrong and promote sexism and toxic behavior to varying degrees to boot - all of which could negatively impact one’s chances with women. It makes more sense to talk to women directly about this stuff or engage with reputable, mainstream content.


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Honey69
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26 Mar 2025, 4:37 pm

Here is an article

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0229719

CONCLUSION wrote:

The ordinary rank and file men within the seduction community have been demonized by sections of the media, largely due to the activities of a few prominent PUA instructors. However, the present study uncovers much nuance and complexity in the reasons why men join the seduction community, as well as the impacts that involvement has on them. Most significantly, the study reveals that men join the community to address a range of psychosocial deficits, and that community involvement helps equip participants with a range of valued social and communication skills. This seemed to be especially beneficial for immigrant participants, who are overrepresented in the community. That said, there is a dark side to community involvement.

Nature abhors a vacuum. As such, it may be that young men are joining the seduction community in the absence of alternative male-focused and male-led tailored supports that can help them make the transition to adulthood. Thus, there is a pressing need for new and tailored initiatives (and accompanying research) to improve the mental health and well-being of young men, which can incorporate some of the male friendly approaches identified in this paper, minus the harmful practices and the emphasis on sex and seduction. Such efforts may help address the oft-ignored psychosocial problems plaguing a growing number of young men in our society.



There aren't a whole lot of options for men with psychosocial deficits. A little bit of PUA instruction might be helpful to some.

TwilightPrincess wrote:

It makes more sense to talk to women directly about this stuff



An interesting idea, but I don't think that a lot of women are setting up classes to teach men how to pick up women.

TwilightPrincess wrote:

or engage with reputable, mainstream content.



There isn't a lot. And, a lot of people might not find it to be particularly useful.


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TwilightPrincess
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26 Mar 2025, 4:47 pm

I don’t believe in demonizing anyone, but I think it is important to talk about the problems with PUA sites and communities when the topic comes up because I could see how they might appeal to some disenfranchised people, just like how some Incel or far right movements do. Such groups harm both men and women. They also tend to overcomplicate things.

Honey69 wrote:
There aren't a whole lot of options for men with psychosocial deficits. A little bit of PUA instruction might be helpful to some.
I don’t think it is helpful. Time would be better spent asking for advice from women, especially women one respects. And vice versa. I’ve sought advice and feedback from men, including on WP. I don’t believe people are that different from each other, but it does help to get insight on socialized norms from the demographic in question sometimes.

Looking for help from reputable sources and individuals is prudent, but reputable sources tend not to be PUA communities. Even the link that you posted from French Pickup Artist was problematic in a variety of ways.

We need to be moving away from the concept of seduction and from the sexist, demeaning views that often accompany it.


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Cornflake
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26 Mar 2025, 5:14 pm

 ! Cornflake wrote:
Using sources other than offensive and sexist PUA crap sites would be a good move and should find real-world examples.

Those earlier links to such sites have been redacted.
I don't think WP should assist with their further exposure.


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Honey69
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26 Mar 2025, 6:28 pm

Sorry. :oops:

Here is another article

https://www.marriage.com/advice/relatio ... men-flirt/

Rachael Pace wrote:

If a girl is highly interested in you, she would still try to hide it from you. This might sound strange to men, but it is absolutely normal for women and one of the flirting signs from a woman.

If she does strange things to conceal her feelings, she might be trying to avoid you. When a woman tries to avoid a man, she actually wants that man to ‘’notice’’ her avoidance.



Weird. If "no" means "NO!", then how is a man supposed to process this flirting technique? :scratch:


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TwilightPrincess
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26 Mar 2025, 6:59 pm

I wouldn’t try to process it because I don’t think it happens very often.

The vast majority of the time women mean what they say when they say “no,” and their behavior is a good indicator of their level of interest which makes sense from a logical standpoint. There’s typically no hidden agenda when they’re trying to avoid someone. Sticking with that assumption may be especially prudent for people on the spectrum.


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Honey69
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26 Mar 2025, 8:00 pm

According to the author, Rachael Pace, who is a WOMAN, it is "absolutely normal." It sounds like the female version of what PUA's call "negging."

I wonder if there is a female version of pick-up artistry?


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TwilightPrincess
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26 Mar 2025, 8:14 pm

I realize that the author is a woman, but the article seems clickblaity and is lacking in evidence and research. It doesn’t even make logical sense. There are lots of reasons why a woman might avoid someone that have nothing to do with flirting. In addition to that, I think it’s important to listen to women and believe what they tell you which would include stuff like taking avoidance behavior and body language seriously. Failing to take women seriously with this stuff due to assuming they aren’t serious (or whatever) happens a lot, and it has a distinctly sexist flavor. Given how often it happens, many women deeply value when people demonstrate respect with this stuff.

I don’t think avoidance/hiding feelings would constitute negging, which is more about insults. With that being said, women engage in the same sh***y behaviors as other humans.


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Honey69
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26 Mar 2025, 9:26 pm

Well, here is a scientific article which claims that we like women with a nice lumbar curvature

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub


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Honey69
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26 Mar 2025, 10:11 pm

Here is the beginning of Chapter X so far. Did I capture female flirtation procedures? Does Marie seem nice and seductive? Am I appropriately sarcastic?

Quote:

During the morning, Dominic arrived at the Fegelein household, with Marie, who wore a tight-fitting short dress with a low neckline that exposed the upper part of her breasts. Ronald, freshly bathed, hair combed, and wearing clean clothes, let them in. Ilsa, seated on the couch, was watching Ox News.

“Good morning, Ronald,” greeted Dominic. “Marie is here to clean your house. And your mother will be staying home to supervise.”

“That’s right,” answered Ronald. Ronald and Marie made eye contact. Marie’s eyebrows rose, and then lowered, as Marie and Ronald smiled pleasantly at each other.

“Okay, have a good day,” said Dominic. “Marie, I’ll pick you up later this afternoon.”

“Yes sir,” answered Marie, as her face briefly tilted upwards. Gazing again into Ronald’s eyes, she opened her mouth slightly, and drew her tongue over her lips. Then she strode confidently, in a flowing movement, towards the kitchen sink. Her breast brushed delicately against Ronald’s upper arm. “Excuse me”, she whispered into Ronald’s ear.

“Oh, no problem!” said Ronald. Marie giggled seductively as she tilted her head sideways, and tenderly fondled her exposed neck with her fingers.

When she reached the sink, Marie stood with one leg straight, letting the other leg loose, so that her hips were moderately inclined, and hiked her dress slightly. She raised one hand, to push her fingers through her hair. She arched her back, turned her head, and smiled at Ronald.

Marie grabbed and caressed the bottle of dishwashing liquid between her fingers, and then squirted some soap onto the sponge under the faucet. She then commenced washing the accumulated dirty dishes.

“Hey Ronald! Come and look at this!” said Ilsa, drawing her son’s attention to the television. “The Chief Executive Officer of the Jordan Pretzel Company has received death threats. They’ve firebombed a pretzel delivery truck. And someone was arrested who was trying to throw a brick through the company’s windows.”

“Wow! That’s awesome!” exclaimed Ronald, who quickly moved to sit next to his mother. He was thrilled to watch the coverage of the burning delivery truck. The ambulance had arrived, and paramedics used a stretcher to carry the wounded driver away from the wreckage. Reporters anxiously interviewed witnesses who were standing by. “That’s what good conservative patriots do!”


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BillyTree
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27 Mar 2025, 12:18 pm

I think the best way to be more attractive to women is to observe men that are of a similar type of man as yourself that have success with women and learn from that. I think asking women for advice on this is generally a bad idea.


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Last edited by Cornflake on 27 Mar 2025, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Removed some sexist generalizations

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27 Mar 2025, 12:39 pm

'Giggled seductively' seems an unusual choice of words. I'm not really sure how someone can giggle in a way that is seductive. To me, giggling would imply laughing giddily in a somewhat almost childish and carefree way. I could imagine it could be endearing but...seductive? :scratch:

The part about the exposed neck would seem more apt if she was trying to flirt with a vampire.

Why the caressing of dishwashing liquid? Leave the kitchen items alone. It could do with some toning down.

I wrote this version because I'm bored:

Quote:
Dominic stood outside his mother's house. The morning sun shone faintly on the Fegelein household. Next to him stood Marie. She wore an A-line short dress with a low neckline. "What?" asked Marie.

He shuffled his feet. "I didn't say anything" Dominic replied. He adjusted his clothing and took in a deep breath. "It's just, well, I would have preferred if you had dressed a little more", he gestured as he searched for the word, "conservatively".

Marie smiled. "Ah, well you know me, ever the devout nun". She gave a mock curtsy. "Now, shall we?"

Dominic sighed. "Well, at the very least wear this", he took off his jacket and went to hand it over.

She raised an eyebrow.

"You're right, my mother would probably question things if you started wearing my clothes" said Dominic. He put his jacket back on. "Just promise me you'll behave".

Marie smirked.


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27 Mar 2025, 12:42 pm

I giggle quite a lot and usually to myself when I all of a sudden get a joke that I heard about 30 years ago

I hope no one ever gets the wrong impression and thinks I'm lusting after them


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blitzkrieg
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27 Mar 2025, 1:56 pm

babybird wrote:
I giggle quite a lot and usually to myself when I all of a sudden get a joke that I heard about 30 years ago

I hope no one ever gets the wrong impression and thinks I'm lusting after them


:lol: