Got Goth?

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These are recommendable:


Manic Street Preachers: "The Holy Bible", Epic (Sony), 1994


The Cure: "Pornography", Fiction, 1982


Siouxsie and the Banshees: "Join Hands", Polydor, 1979


Ballet Mécanique: "The Icecold Waters Of The Egocentric Calculation" (re-issue), Sony BMG, 2006

I am heavily into both The Cure and Siouxsie and the Banshees, and am aware of The Manic Street Preachers, but thank you anyway.

Do y'all consider Type O Negative to be goth?

Evanescence and Marilyn Manson are widely considered gothic rock, if not the definitive examples of gothic rock. I consider Orgy, Zeromancer, Rammstein, and MM to be fairly similar in tone, instrumental stylings, and subject matter, though they do all have their differences. (Zeromancer's more similar to pop, Rammstein is more metal-y, etc.) Evanescence I don't consider to be very similar to the others, but I still don't understand how you can NOT consider them gothic rock. If they're not gothic rock, then what are they? Hell of a lot darker and morbid than alternative pop rock, that's for sure.



To me gothic involves the overall style and the subject matter of the band, as well as the mood. It's not an exclusive thing. Something can be both gothic and mainstream, after all.



I haven't listened to them extensively because I didn't really like them. I don't not consider them gothic, I just don't think it's limited to that particular kind of tone. When someone says "goth music," people don't think of Gang of Four, or The Fall, or Bauhaus. In fact I've never heard of them until I read this post. No, people think of bands like the ones I listed in my previous post. So forgive me for being confused here. It seems like you're basing the entirety of gothic music on just the goth music that you happen to like. That's why I used the word Darkwave, because it's the closest word I can think of as to that particular brand of gothic music, in regards to the common vocal and instrumental stylings. It may not be the most correct word, but there are different (even if unnamed) subgenres of gothic rock and that's not the only kind.

I agree, they are considered Gothic Rock, by people who have little to no understand of Goth culture and it's history, I consider Evanescence to be a bastard child of several different styles that are sometimes considered Goth (Gothic Metal?), but you really can't go by what everyone is saying, otherwise all Black Metal might be Goth, and Death Metal, and Gothic Metal, Industrial, ect (Marilyn Manson is Industrial Rock), point is that I really don't care what most people think, and I care even less for what people think of as Gothic (Adjective), Orgy Zeromancer and Rammstein are all significantly Industrial, with differences between the bands being Zeromancer has Synthpop influences (ie Linkin Park), and Rammstein came from a genre that has little relation to Industrial, but sounds similiar (New German Hardness), Evanescence of course has no Industrial influence that I can see, anyway Gothic Rock pretty much "began" with Bauhaus (Although there were a few bands before them), just as the Record Label "Industrial Records" had the first Industrial bands, and surprise surprise, they are an influence on the bands you mention, Gothic Rock however hasn't got much influence at all on those bands, those bands are industrial.




But subject matter shouldn't influence the bands style, if Johnny Cash had Gothic subject matter his music wouldn't be Goth, the only reason these bands (M M) are being called Goth is because the have what the public would consider as Goth, however all Goths happen to like what you call Darkwave, and a good portion of Goths seem to hate what you call Gothic Rock, and even more interesting is that the fans of what you call Gothic Rock are called Rivetheads and tend to wear stuff with a strong military theme, does something sound wrong to you here? 'Cause I don't know about you but I always thought of Goths as listening to Gothic Rock, anyway I think you should try Googling Rivethead, "Industrial History", "Goth History" (Although pages with infomation on Goth tend to give you all kinds of crazy infomation, some will give you legit infomation and even cite their sources.)

http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm

I think you're ignoring the fact that The Cure is mainstream, so yes I'm fully aware it is not a contradiction.




Well this is because dispite the fact tons of people know *about* Goth and Goth music, *very* few people know what it is like or about, except for some Goths and some people who aren't, again I really don't care what other people think when they hear the term Goth, often they're wrong, it's like asking a Fundamentalist Christian about Satanist ideals sure you might get an honest answer but what are the chances? Hell what are the chances they'll even know what they're talking about? It's a sad fact that when a Goth says "Gothic Rock" it'll often mean something completely different when even a well meaning person says it, and that's what's important, and I find it strange that you would value what someone who isn't an expert says on the subject rather than someone who is.

Are you intentionally trying to start a flame war in here? Seriously, read the posts.

dunno bubba...says they went on a goth-rock tour here
http://www.livedaily.com/news/7056.html?t=29

but i think they are a bit heavy to be that in my mind..

They're more or less the same style as that other band, Virgin Black, except instead of Symphonic Metal and Gothic Metal it's Doom Metal and Gothic Metal, which means it sounds slower and dryer (To put it simply), rather than sounding like say Within Temptation.

I love to talk about music but I'll try to not enter the genre debate as they tend to never get resolved. I think "Goth" as a genre identifier is much more wide-ranging these days than it was in the 80s when it got started, so it is hard to pin down exactly what it means now - and it will never mean the same thing to everyone, even those who are deeply involved in the Goth community.

Here are some great groups which might pertain to the thread but I honestly don't know if they are "officially" considered Goth. I personally think they have strong ties to the lineage of Goth music. Neo-classical, neo-medieval, goth-ethereal, and darkwave are terms that might also apply to some of them. In any case I think they are very worth listening to and highly recommended.

- Unto Ashes
- Lycia
- Die Verbannten Kinder Evas
- Dark Sanctuary

Terms can mean lots of different things to lots of different people, if you allow all of the meanings to be considered true then it loses it's meaning, you have to draw the line.

Again I should have been more specific and left out the "Goth Music" thing, I'll edit it now.

Oh and I am already aware of those bands, figures (Except for Die Verbannten Kinder Evas, and Dark Sanctuary which I already enjoy).

I can't seem to access the Page.

Oh I agree you have to draw the line somewhere, and I do personally, but that line is different for everyone and so I've found those debates never end. A lot of the best music doesn't fit easily into tightly defined labels anyway, in my opinion.

Well definitely check out Die Verbannten Kinder Evas if you get the chance, especially their more recent albums - really excellent stuff. I actually haven't heard all of their newest album but the previous one called "In Darkness Let Me Dwell" is my favorite.

Well in this case there is no need to draw the line anyway, seeing as alot of these bands that were mentioned have no relation to Gothic Rock, Post-punk, Deathrock anyway, which was what I was going for anyway, (I mean what Goth bands influenced Ballet Mécanique?!), usually when a band can't be catagorised neatly it gets a new label, like Bauhaus, if a band is borderline you just stick it with the one it falls closest to (Dark Sanctuary is easily Neo Classical), that's what Genres are all about anyway, I mean if you research them closely enough you find that some go backwards, Hip Hop is influenced by Jazz for example, and now you've got Jazz-rap, I don't see what you mean by "Different for everyone" though, I mean a band doesn't stop being a certian genre just because another disagrees, and mood really hasn't got all that much to do with it, and that seems to be the only subjective thing IMO.

I should stop now because I've had a headache, sore fingers, and a strained muscle for a while now.

Dude, whatever. I'm just saying be open minded. I accept that your idea of goth rock is still goth rock even though I don't like that particular type, so please show me and the music I like the same respect. And just because something isn't considered gothic by the Australian gothic scene doesn't mean it's not gothic elsewhere. The bands I mentioned are VERY popular among the gothic crowds in the US and in Europe, and that's a lot of goths--and I haven't heard any of them mention the bands you mentioned as their "favorite gothic music." I guess that means they're not true goths? BS. Genres evolve, lables evolve, styles evolve. Like SpectreWithin said, different lables are different things to different people. Just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean it's not gothic. I'm not telling you that we have to discuss these sorts of bands in this thread, I'm just asking you to be open minded about this sort of thing.

I had heard of groups like Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, the Cure, Joy Division falling within the scope of "Goth" since 1995 at least, so I did not think of this standard as being strange at all. But yeah, the genres change, and every musician is influenced by contemporary music and his predecessors. Goth today means something different compared to 10 years ago, which could be different from 15 years ago, which could be different from 10 years in the future. Music nowadays could possibly be influenced by 90s alternative and grunge, whereas 80s music of course could not have that influence. They will sound different. In addition, every band is going to be slightly different from each other at a minimum, no matter what kind of label you want to put on them. No label is going to really describe the full range and variety that exists out there.

Same is true for the AS label, right?

In my honest opinion I think it'd be more worthwhile to discuss something like how various groups' music was inspired by earlier groups in the genre. Even if you don't like the older music, I think that to really understand the music, you should know where it came from. There is history to all forms of art.

I realise what you're saying but you don't understand the history or the genre at all, and this isn't just the Australian Goth Scenes, this is the American Goth Scenes and the UK Goth Scenes too, maybe you just have to look harder, and never assume a person is a Goth just because they look like one, or that someone isn't just because they don't.

Well someone has to be right.

True but that doesn't mean they're right, some people think Satanists worship Satan, that doesn't mean those people are right, just means they're misinformed, you need to read into the Goth Culture more before you start saying things like you know it.

Ha, no sorry, this isn't about being open minded, this is about what you said being tantamount to my sister saying that Old Punk wasn't Punk at all and new Punk is Punk, wrong, alot of the "Punk" bands didn't really take that much influence from it at all, and Punk is still around in it's "Original" form, just like Goth, in fact Goth has only recently gotten anything to do with that kind of music, and that's only because people played them in Goth Clubs to attract more people, the music you're describing is Industrial and has a completely different history. You should let what the media says effect your opinion.