What does "lack of eye contact" refers to?

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I would stress that I don't know what's going on in that church you went to, and that it could be different to the one I saw on WP that time. So although I think the hugging thing is sometimes used as a device for keeping lonely men interested, that doesn't mean it's necessarily happening in "your" church. I'd recommend that you keep an open mind on the matter if you're trying to choose between churches. I've often thought that a lot of people go to church primarily for social contact (physical or otherwise), rather than primarily for spiritual guidance. It might be hypocritical, but I don't see it as very harmful.

Yes, I'm sure there are many people who never get hugged and crave to be touched. I was one myself for a few years, and for all I know I may be again one day.

isn't it learned behavior for a great part, that eyecontact?

it is as if dependency, clingyness, attentionseeking is the promoted preferred behavior
- as usual the middleground would be the better guide but humans like too much their addictive behavior of going overboard one way or the other

Some of it came from reading about psychology and sociology, i.e. finding out more about what makes people tick. Then by a strange quirk of fate I moved into a district inhabited by some really nice, friendly people.

Not that my life has been a tale of continuous social progress. I may have given the wrong impression when I said "I got more skilled at winning friends." It's true, but I only meant I got more skilled than I was, not that I became an expert. And I didn't do so well at keeping friends. And I found that a lot depends on the nature of the people who I happened to come into contact with over the years, so the number of friends I have is very much in the lap of the gods, as out of my control as good and bad weather. It just depends who happens to drift into my life. In the wrong social environment I don't do well at all, and the right social environment doesn't turn up very often. Ever since finding my first serious girlfriend many years ago, I've never been partnerless for long, but if I lost my current partner tomorrow, it might easily happen that I'd never be able to find another one.

To the OP:

Your analysis and "over-thinking" is in true Autistic fashion; love it! But to add insight: If you're a college professor, this raises the stakes when it comes to yielding eye contact when passing people, particularly students. Teachers need to make themselves approachable. It's part of the job.

However, if you were a production worker at a plant, it is LESS socially required to give eye contact to people you pass. You wouldn't need to be approachable to them.

In a position of authority (teacher), you need to convey "approachable-ness." When I was a personal trainer years ago at a large, crowded gym, doggone it, I found myself giving more passing eye contact than I was comfortable with, and it often felt awkward. However, something in me was making me doing this -- the desire to be approachable one day by any of the people I had met eyes with -- maybe they got fed up with weight struggles and finally decided they needed a trainer: "Oh, that one lady a few weeks ago..." (They'd remember we had met eyes ever so briefly).

You described my eye contact nearly to a tee. I think eye contact is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT if one wants to avoid coming across as insecure, lacking confidence, easily bullied, easily frightened, not sure of themself, mentally weak.

When I want people to know I MEAN BUSINESS, I give 'em good solid eye contact. I want this connection.

If I'm walking on a sidewalk passing numerous people, inside a building, or any venue where I'm passing people, I avoid eye contact because I do NOT want ANY connection. However, if they speak to me, I give it. If I speak to them, I give it. If I'm passing a man at night on an empty sidewalk, I ALWAYS give it, to establish dominance (he could be a predator looking for a victim).

I give good eye contact as the listener, but stray if I'm doing long talking (watching someone's face during long talking is distracting).

When I enter the gym (new gym, no longer a personal trainer), the front desk person is always happy to greet me, but I want to make a minimal connection, and I've found myself glancing briefly between their eyes. If I want to compliment them on their hair, I give good eye contact. When I told a front desk person that a treadmill was malfunctioning, I looked him in the eye, but then got distracted by his stubble, and looked at his stubble (I LOVE stubble), but then back at his eyes so that he wouldn't think I was creepy or something.

To those who avoid eye contact: You won't come across as dishonest or "shifty" nearly as much as easily bullied, insecure, lacking confidence, mentally weak. Avoiding eye contact IN CONVERSATION makes the other person view you as skittish, unless you make periodic "reconnection" eye contact. So if it's sensory overload, maybe do a reconnection during pauses in speech?

I have a clinical diagnosis of ASD.

Last edited by Elgee on 14 Oct 2022, 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

In my case, I have my own wish for people to approach me, *outside* of job. Of course, the job people (including that woman) don't care whether I make friends outside the job. But I do. And thats why I used what she said as an example for something I am concerned about and she isn't: Namely why don't anyone approach me outside the job?



But, from my point of view, coming across as insecure and weak is not such a bad thing. Because its true: I am in fact insecure and weak. So I want people to see it, and help me out.

Maybe, again, you are talking about the context of a job. And since a teacher shouldn't be asking students to "help them out", you won't even be thinking along those lines. But then, again, I am not focusing on the job (as a matter of fact, friendship between instructor and students is inappropriate altogether). What I am focusing on, is my social skills OUTSIDE of work, and I use her feedback as a "tool" to see what is going on.

So, as we talk about outside of work, you said two things. First, it comes across as insecure, and secondly it comes across as not approachable. But why would insecure be less approachable? I thought the reason people don't see me as approachable is that they see me as a threat. In order to be a threat, one has to be strong. In order to be insecure, one has to be weak. So those are two opposite things. Thats why I don't see why weak, insecure people would be perceived as threats, and thats why I don't see why they won't be approachable.

There are other reasons than "threat" that would make a person not approachable. There are people I won't approach, yet I don't see them as a threat. I may even see them as weak and insecure.

If I want to attempt a little socializing, and someone is entirely avoiding eye contact with me, I will not approach them at all, because to me, the gaze aversion is a cue for "I'm not interested." I realize that if I DO initiate interaction, they may warm up. But, being socially awkward myself, I guess I'm rather picky.

This isn't to say that I require their eye contact for socializing. No sir. It's just that if they avoid eye contact, I won't be able to help think that they're insecure or lacking confidence. Now certainly, since my diagnostic journey, I now realize that if I happen to meet someone who avoids eye contact, I'll assume they're autistic. But, prior to my journey, I'd always think that gaze aversion signaled lack of confidence, psychological weakness, etc. I know these are strong descriptors, but it's true: Looking in the eye, for some people, IS intimidating to them.

If an autistic avoids eye contact with me, I'll consider the possibility that it's sensory overload and they need to look away to focus on the conversation.

I understand that fully, being that I myself would rather look away when I long-talk.

Back to the topic: If someone doesn't approach you this doesn't mean they perceive you as a threat.

But how do you know if they have eye contact with you or not, if you're autistic and you're not looking them in the eye?

In every interaction with a person that lasts longer than several moments, I give eye contact. If they avoid eye contact during a very brief interaction, I won't think anything of it. But if it's a back-and-forth discussion, and they're avoiding eye contact whether I'm talking or they're talking, I'm going to begin wondering if they might be autistic. However, a person might give me good eye contact and I may still think they're autistic. For example, at the climbing gym, a teen boy approached me and gave a pointer on a route. Right away I could tell there was something quirky and odd about him, yet he gave solid eye contact. I'm not saying he's definitely autistic, but, I wouldn't be surprised if he had the diagnosis.

In all business transactions I give eye contact, though as I already mentioned, it'll stray if I'm doing long talking.

I played ping pong with a total stranger at the climbing gym (yes, they had a table set up). I hardly gave him eye contact (during all the times just prior to a serve) except for great shots, and at the end when I shook hands with him. Didn't feel it was necessary, and felt that repeatedly meeting his eyes was a bit over-reaching since all we were doing was hitting a plastic ball back and forth.

As I tried to pay attention at what I do for a few days I noticed one thing. If I make an eye contact, then the other person looks back which "feels as if" they are inviting me to say something. I don't want to say anything since I want the other person to start a conversation first. And then I am faced with a dillema: either keep looking, or not. If I keep looking, then I am staring. If I don't, then I avoid eye contact (as in, quickly look away the moment I looked at someone). What do I actually do? Sometimes one, sometimes the other, oftentimes a combination of both.

I guess if I were to bring myself to actually say something, I won't have that dillema, cause then I would start talking AND have the amount of eye contact that would be congruent with conversation. So the root of the issue is that I don't want to be the first one to talk. The eye contact is only a consequence.

Others probably don't realize it cause they read about "no eye contact" thing with respect to autism so they just assume that is the root cause in my case too, when it isn't.

Speaking of touching, the girl named Anne back in 2005 was thinking I didn't like being touched. In actuality, the reason I avoided HER hugging me is cause she LJBF-ed me PRIOR to that, so the whole idea felt awkward. So, as you see, it had nothing to do with aversion to touch. Yet she thought it did.

This makes me wonder: is it really true that for all other aspies its all sensory and I am the only one for whom it is psychological? Or could it be that for other aspies it is psychological, too, and people mis-assume things just like they mis-assume with me?

With how common thing sensory issues seem to be for those on the spectrum and with how much people talk about them, I'd say there are many who really have them. However, there might be others like you who have trouble because you think of the reasoning behind the touch and not the physical contact itself. You probably aren't alone in that, though I do think that you're probably in the minority.

Then again, there could be people who have both sensory and psychological reasons to avoid physical contact. Like, someone may have sensory issues, but they might also have negative experiences unrelated to them about physical contact, like having been abused in the past, so they avoid physical contact for two unrelated reasons?

That could be relevant to me in other areas. For example, when I was little kid, I touched burdock leaf once, and it felt bad. And, from that point onward, I have an idea that, no matter how burdock leaf happens to feel, that feeling is "by definition" bad. So lets say I accidentally touch a burdock with eyes closed. Who knows, maybe it would feel somewhat bad but not enough to throw me into the loop. But if I open the eyes and see its a burdock, that would give me a nightmare.

The other example is kosher. So pork and sea food are not kosher. Actually I have no idea how they taste. But, by definition, their taste is awful. So lets say someone makes it into a paste and lies to me that its something else. I might enjoy the taste, who knows. But then lets say someone else comes along and tells me the truth as to what it is. I would immediately want to throw up. Which wont be a religion-related guilt, but rather an idea that this taste is disgusting.

To help you see this, think of eating a bugger. Seeing how many little kids eat it, this taste is not in itself bad. But since I know that it is disgusting thats why I would want to throw up if I eat it. I guess with bugger they won't be able to trick me the way they would with pork and sea food since, unlike pork and see food, I actually know how it tastes. But I hope you see what I mean.

Or the other example is eating from other people's plates. When I was a little kid, my mom told me that the reason I shouldn't eat from other people's plates is because "other people's saliva doesn't taste good". My mom herself no longer remembers it and she says its about germs which won't be relevant as long as the food is boilded properly. But it doesn't matter what she says now: I already got it into my head that "other peoples saliva doesn't taste good". And so I keep telling her not to taste food more than once no matter how much it is being boiled.

One thing my mom points out is that at the restaurant they taste food more than once and I still go to restaurants. I guess I pretend as if they don't. So that again shows that its not truly sensory issue but more psychological. Because if it was something I could actually taste, then I won't be able to pretend that at the restaurants there is no saliva in the food. But since I can't actually taste this, thats why I pretend this way.

And going back to touch. The kind of touch that I would find disgusting is if a male were to give me a hug. I only want to be hugged by females. Yet technically it feels the same way. Yet the idea of being hugged by a male is disgusting.

And by the way it has nothing to do with "gay" thing. If I were to be a woman, I would still only want to be hugged by other women and not by men. I just feel like being hugged by a woman intrinsically feels good and being hugged by a man intrinsically feels bad -- regardless of my own gender. The fact that women seem to enjoy hugging each other seem to confirm this idea. But I have no idea how they can have male partners, I wouldn't be able to do it if I was them.

I have no problem with shaking hands with men though.

Well, now that I came up with this whole list, maybe part of the issue is that my mind focuses on things I want rather than on things that I don't want. So when I think of being touched I think "I don't have problems with being touched: I wish women were to touch me more". Yet I don't stop to ask myself "and what about being touched by men? What about burdocks? etc" So perhaps other aspies who admit to having issues that I don't admit to, they just have different focus than me? Perhaps thats because they are exposed to social interactions more than me and thats why they are focusing on being "forced" to do things they don't want, whereas I am being isolated and so I am focusing on being "deprived" of things I do want?

I still don't think any of the things I listed above are sensory-proper, seeing how most of them (except for burdocks, perhaps) won't feel awful if my eyes were closed.

But who knows, maybe with other aspies the psychology plays a role too? Because my "psychological" issues are linked to inflexibility of thinking (I see something a certain way once my mind is made up), which "is" considered to be an aspie trait.

But then again, don't NT-s have that trait too? My complaining about NT-s judging me and having their mind made up no matter what I say -- that is pretty much the same thing, isn't it?

I think in many cases there's a strong sensory aversion to eye contact, but I haven't seen that in my own case. I do sometimes get a visceral sense of revulsion when I try to look at some people's faces during conversation, but I've only ever noticed it when the other person seems to be faking their expressions, trying to appear more interested than they truly are, or doing a bad job of feigning a smile or approval.

For many years I just didn't know that people tend to expect it. I didn't start doing it intuitively like NTs are supposed to. And if I try too hard to comply with this supposed rule, my attention gets divided between the eye contact and the actual conversation. I suppose you could call that psychological, but more specifically I see it as neurological in my case, but if neurology is defined as a medical thing, as it is here:

https://neurotray.com/difference-betwee ... sychology/

then it would be misleading for me to claim it was neurological, because I'm wary of overmedicalising my ASD traits - I see some validity in considering my entire conversational style, eye-contact and all, as different rather than impaired. Other people find it perfectly possible to have a conversation with me if they aren't glued to their sense of what's proper. Years before my DX, I was quite able to do that when talking with others. I had a teacher who would close his eyes and turn them away from me, and turn his ear towards me when I spoke to him, and I just figured, probably correctly, that he was doing that to listen to me more carefully. I had a conversation with a non-blood relative who seemed to be hiding her face the whole time, but it was quite clear from her intelligent and receptive contribution to the discussion that she was listening well and fully engaged with what we were talking about.

Extremely off topic, but wouldn't this mean that the idea of kissing people on the mouth would disgust you since like that, you're likely to taste their saliva?



...So if you met a woman who was very touchy with her female friends and liked to hug them and all (but was straight), yet would refuse to treat you the same way since in her opinion, "hugging men is disgusting", you wouldn't be offended and would instead totally understand where she's coming from with that?

I actually came across this exact problem when I had girlfriends in the past. It took around a month or so for me to get comfortable kissing them.

Now, if they weren't pushing me to do it, then I wouldn't have been kissing them at all -- not even in the relationship that lasted two years. But because they were pushing me, thats why I had to at first force myself to do it and eventually learn to be comfortable with it.

The way I taught myself to be comfortable with it is by telling myself "at least its a female saliva and not male saliva". Eventually I came to like it -- to the point that I felt like doing it all on my own. But then when I had a new girlfriend, I again didn't like it, and I had to re-learn to like it all over again.

By the way, the thought that I constantly have a saliva in my mouth, and its a male saliva, disgusts me too if I think of it. But I just learn not to think of it. And the way I avoid thinking of it is that when I eat, I use my teeth to take food from the spoon rather than my lips. Because if I were to use the lips, it would remind me of the saliva thing.



That is a very good question. I guess it is related to the way I don't look at myself in a mirror. And so I am not picturing myself as a man but rather I am picturing myself as some genderless entity. And when I do look at a mirror then every time I feel like "oh wow, thats not how I picture myself at all".

By the way it puzzles me why, typically, straight people want to be their own gender while gay people want to be the opposite gender. I am opposite to this. I tend to internalize whatever I am being attracted to. So since I am attracted to women this makes me want to be a woman.

I mean, think of body odor for example. As I am attracted to women, I think female body odor feels good, while male body odor is disgusting. This in and of itself would make me want to be a woman, that way I would avoid being constantly exposed to male body odor and, instead, would be able to smell female body odor any time I want.

How do I deal with this situation? Well I remind myself of how people used to confuse me with a woman back when I was a teenager, which means that maybe my body is not fully male and my body odor is not fully male either. But thats like lying to myself (although who knows: it is true that if I were to ever smell another person -- be it a male or a female -- the body odor would be different than mine).

I do realize though that if I list all the things that I want, I would be asking for impossible. For one thing, I want kids. In order to have kids, I have to either be a male with a female partner, or be a woman with a male partner. If I am a male with female partner, then being a male is disgusting. If I am a female with a male partner, then having a male partner would be disgusting. So it would be disgusting both ways.

And then of course homosexuality is a sin. Well I guess the way out of this one is to be asexual female? But then again, I won't have kids which would be a problem.

Going back to "not looking at myself in the mirror", it might also relate to a host of other issues. For example remember how I talked about not taking care of my appearance in other posts? I guess if I were to look at myself in the mirror, I wouldn't have to be reminded to do it: I would more or less "want" to put everything aside and do it.

But at the same time, "not looking in the mirror" is not an attempt to avoid confronting those other things. Because I never had that habbit even back when I haven't been thinking of them. I think its more in the other direction. Since I never had a habbit to look in the mirror, thats what "allowed" me to develop self perception that is distinct from reality. And this results in all of the things I been talking about and more.

Hmm I'm throwing this seriously off topic, but since this is QFT's topic and he's not complaining, it's fine, right?

That's not how it goes. Gay people want to be with the same gender, not be the opposite gender. The ones who want to be the opposite gender are called trans.



Um, modern technology? If you were an asexual woman, you could still have kids with assisted reproduction. They'd have your (female) genes and anonymous donor's (male) genes. It wouldn't require you to even be in the same room with the other person. Of course, this would be assuming you could afford the treatment and were qualified for it... and, as has been stated, were a woman.

I know that gays and trans are two separate things and there are some gays that aren't trans and some trans that aren't gays.

But if you look at "statistical correlation" then among gays the percentage of trans is higher than among straights. I would have expected the correlation to be the opposite to that.



Good point. I would have said that those kinds of offsprings might not have a soul. But I won't say it because I learned that a certain woman whom I met in the Adventist club 15 years ago and with whom I reconnected few years back, she was an offspring of this kind of fertilization. Yet she has a good soul. She is married, though. But still I was glad to meet her cause I miss the past. So I dunno. I still personally wouldn't make that choice. But I do see your point.